1st July 2006 Stumble it!

Atheists are bad, bad people… man

posted in Philosophy by themaiden |

A study by professor Joseph Gerteis and associate professor Douglas Hartmann a has concluded that Americans believe that a person who doesn’t believe in a god is the “ultimate self-interested actor who doesn’t care about anyone but themselves” and “that religion and good morals are one and the same”. Americans consequently “rate atheists below Muslims, recent immigrants, homosexuals and other groups as “sharing their vision of American society.”

This is not news. I already knew it. All of it.

No, no. I’m not psychic, and they didn’t steal my research; I’ve just heard or read this atheist slander more times than I can count.

For example:

… here is why I discount beliefs such as atheism, they have no logical adequate basis for morality, or love or imagination or inference to name a few. This doesn’t mean atheists are not moral or do not love or do not have inferences it’s just that there worldview does not adequately support them.

What is Faith?

Or:

‘If a person doesn’t think there is a God to be accountable to, then—then what’s the point of trying to modify your behaviour to keep it within acceptable ranges? That’s how I thought anyway. I always believed the theory of evolution as truth, that we all just came from the slime. When we, when we died, you know, that was it, there is nothing…’

Jeffrey Dahmer, in an interview with Stone Phillips, Dateline NBC, Nov. 29, 1994.

A Mass Murderer on Evolution vs. Morality

Or:

Because the notion that there is no higher authority than nature is precisely what enables people like Mr. Kuklinski – and the vast majority of the killers, rapists and thieves who populate the nightly news.

The Indignity of Atheism

It really all boils down to the idea that people just can’t behave themselves without oversight from some otherworldly intelligence. That is, we humans, like children, cannot behave decently unless we live in mortal terror of punishment or in anticipation of supernatural reward. We need the boogeyman under the bed, and we need a supernatural blankie. God, the good shepherd, lures us to the straight and narrow with promises of heaven like an old man luring a little girl with candy, while promising the horrors of hell if she tells. In the absence of such bribing and bullying, the idea goes, we’ll run wild like the rabid beasts we are.

Really, there are several ways to approach this position. The most obvious, and certainly one of the first things that comes to non-religious minds, is this: It is a very big assumption that God is now involved, or has ever been involved, in these matters at all. Those claiming that moral authority comes from God alone, and those not appealing to such authority cannot be moral, simply assume that God exists. This is a fairly fatal flaw, equivalent to claiming that Love descends from Cupid and that those not believing in Him cannot love at all. It is pure assumption. It is an appeal to an entity which no one has reason to believe exists at all. Without first proving Cupid’s reality, appeals to him are hollow. If no one has reason to believe in the existence of this entity, why believe that it interferes in human affairs?

But there is something more subtle. If the assumption of God is dropped, we have to conclude that humanity has generated its moral codes in the absence of God. That is, if we drop the undemonstrable proposition that God is responsible for morality, it becomes apparent that humans have always done precisely what certain apologists claim is not possible– live by moral systems not derived from God, though frequently attributed to a God or gods. This brings up the question: Is it perhaps not the reality of God that matters, but only the belief, true or not, in a higher power? I think not, for reasons to come.

… to be continued. Please come back for Part II.

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There are currently 69 responses to “Atheists are bad, bad people… man”

Why not let us know what you think by adding your own comment! Your opinion is as valid as anyone elses, so come on... let us know what you think.

  1. 1 On July 1st, 2006, Palantar said:

    From a purely physical perspective, discounting the spiritual for the time being, it has nothing to do with inability to police one’s self as you said “like children” - it has to do with, why would you want to? If there is no God and no ultimate dispenser of divine judgement, then there can be no hope of eternity which reduces humanity to a biological shell intent on satisfying its own needs and rules out such things as true love, because all true love is self-sacrificial. In a context such as this it is completely logical for someone to believe that his fellow society-mates do not have the same vision, because each individual would rather be surrounded by others who would care for himself/herself. In this context, a simple, “you scratch my back, and I’ll scratch yours” which is the essential constraint upon an atheist is found to be lacking by many who desire something deeper…

  2. 2 On July 1st, 2006, Liron said:

    Very nice.

  3. 3 On July 1st, 2006, Alfredo Louro said:

    It’s even more serious. Those who claim that moral codes come from God (which by the way, does not explain why there are several vastly different moral codes in existence), must believe, or profess to believe, that God communicated these rules to someone. Let’s be very clear about this: It is *false*. No God has ever communicated with anyone. No God has ever dictated a moral code to a human. However, if a human claims to have received a set of rules directly from God, and others believe him, this human holds tremendous power over those people. Think about this.

  4. 4 On July 1st, 2006, Fleg123 said:

    Hey, I am an atheist and so sympathize with your argument, however I can not help but notice that what you prove at the end of this segment contradicts your argument.

    People say that without a belief in God we can not be moral. You say that it is only the belief, right or not, that matters. How does this argue that one does not need God or religion to be moral? If the belief is all that matters the premise of atheism is disbelief then I don’t see what your point is.

  5. 5 On July 1st, 2006, Fleg123 said:

    Add: As a response Palantar:

    And who is deciding that this “vision” is a good one?

  6. 6 On July 1st, 2006, themaiden said:

    Fleg123,

    That isn’t a conclusion at the end of the post, nor is it anything I’d want to prove in any absolute way (though there is something to it from ecological anthropological perspective). That is a question, and a hook upon which I can hang Part II of the series, which is already partially written and will be posted tonight or tomorrow morning.

    Take care.

  7. 7 On July 1st, 2006, themaiden said:

    Why would I want to constrain my behavior, Palantar? That’s too easy. Its the same reason I don’t bring home strange girls. Its the same reason I don’t rob a bank. Its the same reason I don’t shoot doctors who perform procedures to which I object. Catch Part II for the details.

  8. 8 On July 1st, 2006, themaiden said:

    And thanks for the feedback everyone!

  9. 9 On July 1st, 2006, Leroy said:

    Screw your moral codes. Screw your majority opinion. Screw your “scratch my back, I’ll scratch yours” constraint. No need to scratch your back if you’re dead, and believe me, you will be if you don’t mind your own business and stay the heck out of my affairs. And if things work out differently, I haven’t lost much. Just existence in a world that I could already do without.

    My morality is just as valid as yours. So what if I rape little girls. God doesn’t give a crap; he’s not there. Why should you care what I do? You say it’s wrong? Why? Maybe I don’t like your ideas about what’s best for the majority at large. Why should I care about that? Why should I care if my particular actions don’t further the evolution or survival of my species? Surely you won’t make such a baseless claim as telling me that I’m *wrong*.

  10. 10 On July 1st, 2006, themaiden said:

    That’s funny, Leroy.

    It says far more about you than about me.

    What makes you think that your admitting to being a sociopath helps your case?

  11. 11 On July 1st, 2006, boohiss said:

    I don’t think Leroy is a sociopath, I think he’s just trying to make a point.

    I also noticed you didn’t address his questions.

  12. 12 On July 1st, 2006, JRF said:

    Seems like bad people are multiplying at least in USA. According to American Religious Identification Survey “the greatest increase in absolute as well as in percentage terms has been among those adults who do not subscribe to any religious identification; their number has more than doubled from 14.3 million in 1990 to 29.4 million in 2001″ and religious people want to attack this “problem”. Granted, lack of religious identification is not the same as atheism but it’s a step towards atheism.

  13. 13 On July 1st, 2006, Jesus Matin said:

    Leroy’s thinking is what I think fundamentalist and conservative religious people would be like if they had no God in which to believe.
    Unlike those of us who are not religious and yet maintain a perfectly decent and honorable moral code, I suspect that many religious people have these barely constrained, hideously evil thoughts running through their minds and the only thing keeping it under control is a fear of personal pain and torment (i.e. hell).
    To me, Leroy represents the inner thoughts of the conservatively religious amongst us. We should be thankful that they do believe in their God. Imagine what they would do without it? *shiver*

  14. 14 On July 1st, 2006, Lojimi said:

    Wow - thanks for coming up with answers to what man has been pondering since developing the ability to ponder. Obviously the human species could not have lasted so long or developed so many ‘great societies’ without some defense mechanism against chaos. The gods just may be one of the defense mechanisms that allow us to survive. Notice how man’s concept of god has changed through the ages? From many gods to the now most dominant theory of monotheism? Just another device such as how a colony of ants work together. How ironic that this tool which has served us so well for so long may end to our destruction as people kill each other in name of Christianity, Islam or Judaism.

  15. 15 On July 1st, 2006, Leroy said:

    themaiden:

    I wasn’t intending to be humorous. What I wrote certainly does say more about me than you. I didn’t mean to say anything about you, other than voicing the assumption that you probably disagree with my views (a reaction I’m quite used to).

    You may call me a sociopath if you like. It’s a subjective term, and I don’t blame you for applying it to me. It’s a natural reaction given your moralistic inclinations.

    I believe that until you prove to me that God is there, I may do as I like.

  16. 16 On July 1st, 2006, GR said:

    I would guess that by and large as a class both people who profess to believe in God and atheists exhibit moral concern for others in comparable proportions. As one who was raised a believer and set himself free, the “Leroy” response is familiar to me. To go from God to no god leaves a void, a negative afterimage, and it makes you angry for a while at the purported “loving father” who led you to to adulthood and then abandoned you until you can come to terms with the fact that there never was this “father”.

    If I can modify Jesus Matin’s point, I would say that religious people aren’t “hideous and evil”, they’re just like you and me, but you could expect a substantial reaction of resentment to well up if you somehow suddenly deleted their belief.

    Unless you’re arguing that it’s not the fact of their religiosity that would make them evil, but the fact of their willingness to be dictated to in such matters without questioning, in which case I say the finer points of ethics will likely always be the domain of specialists, and apathy is not the same as evil. If we could only achieve universal appreciation of the Golden Rule, I’d declare victory.

  17. 17 On July 1st, 2006, Leroy said:

    Jesus Matin:

    Perhaps. In essence, I may be very similar to a fundamentalist or political conservative, except that I am godless. That really matters very little to me. Personally, I see it as a moot point, or matter of conjecture. If anything, it makes me anxious for the day when these fundamentalists will discard their irrational belief in a deity in favor of joining my ranks.

    You speak of a “perfectly decent and honorable moral code” to which you adhere, contrasted with “hideously evil thoughts”. Let me be brutally honest. I see no basis for such distinctions, and until I can be persuaded that such a basis exists, I will continue in my current vein of thought.

  18. 18 On July 1st, 2006, cedric said:

    We, human, are social beings. Moral behaviors comes from understanding that being a good spouse, a good neighbor and a good citizen is benefiting you directly. You don’t cheat on your spouse, steal your neighbors or cheat on your taxes because you are afraid of God’s wrath. You don’t do it because you know that divorce, jail and fines ultimately suck. Conversely, you can reap the rewards of a moral life every single day. No need to wait for the after-life to enjoy family, friends and everything society has to offer.

    My point is that morality is not that different from the instinct of self-preservation. It is an evolved form, applied to social groups. And like instincts, it is not a perfect, absolute mechanism. Some people (whether they believe in God or not) will sometimes do things that are self-destructive (cheat, steal or worse).

  19. 19 On July 1st, 2006, Johnnie_Depth said:

    After countless Crusades and Holy Wars, the *true* believers are back to square one. Time’s a-wastin’!

  20. 20 On July 1st, 2006, themaiden said:

    Boohiss,

    I know what Leroy intended. I’ve encountered such reasoning so often that I could have written the comment for him. His point is really nothing more than a reiteration of the opening paragraphs of my article, where I provided examples of such reasoning. Granted, Leroy went for ’shock and awe”. The whole article, and the one to follow, is intended to address it. What hasn’t been covered will be covered in Part II. If not, I’ll address criticisms then.

    Leroy,

    What you intended wasn’t the funny part. The funny part is your… hmmm… enthusiasm for the role. Jesus Matin, in many ways, sums up my feelings nicely.

    Come back tomorrow. Read the second part. It will have detail that I’m sure will interest you.

  21. 21 On July 2nd, 2006, Jean Akouri said:

    Whether or not humanity needs belief in a supernatural power to “behave” is not so much the point here…Even if we did, it’s high time a new profile of the so called divine “God” was introduced…The one we’re all familiar with is a sadistic self-involved war monger…I really hope “he” doesn’t exist…

  22. 22 On July 2nd, 2006, sigh9 said:

    I think the point Leroy is making is a valid one: what *do* we base a moral code on in the absence of god? But unfortunately it doesn’t follow that because this is a difficult answer, the answer must be that a god exists.

    It’s one of many arguments with which I have a lot of sympathy(although I believe they are wrong), we all want there to be a meaning to our world. This does not mean that there therefore must be meaning. Wishing does not make it so. Except to a two year old and even then they spend about 6 months in a rage at the world for not working like that.

  23. 23 On July 2nd, 2006, Torben Slutnatch said:

    So, wait… Being ‘moral’ because it pleases/suits you to be so is illogical, but doing so because eventually [your favourite sky god] is going to give you a popsicle is fine? Humans make me laugh sometimes.

    Looking forward to part two, Maiden.

  24. 24 On July 2nd, 2006, rnadom said:

    You treat others nice because you ARE them. If you manage to make yourself be nice to others, then chances are that they’ll be similarly nice to you, which is a good thing. Morality built on top of selfishness. Blah, blah, etc. Does this break down when you’re suicidal? Dunno.

  25. 25 On July 2nd, 2006, Jew said:

    Religion is the source of immorality. Starting with Christianity.

    If you only fear of not doing something immoral because God is watching, does it mean you will stop yourself from actually doing something immoral? If so, why would God in the first covenant (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noahide_Laws ) command man to set up courts and police enforce those laws?

  26. 26 On July 2nd, 2006, daveyboy said:

    Leroy: Even if someone were to prove to you beyond a shadow of a doubt that there was a supreme being, you would still be a sociopath and would continue to bring harm to a society that needs guys like you, like a hole in the head.

  27. 27 On July 2nd, 2006, Michiel said:

    People who believe in God say all kinds of crazy things ;)

    Seriously though, believing in God: right up there with believing in the Easter bunny and Santa. It’d be funny if there weren’t so many corpses.

    My thoughts are that man is still in essence a herd-animal: most of us will cooperate and conduct at least in most part to the prevailing morals of the time, or risk ejection by the herd.

    An interesting side-question would be where do these morals come from as they obviously change over time: for several primitive societies, religious sacrifice of humans was a perfectly good thing (to name just an extreme example).

    With all the people connected in ways our great-grandparents could not imagine yet somehow more isolated than ever before, will these morals stand? Or will the herd dissolve?

  28. 28 On July 2nd, 2006, Leroy said:

    cedric:

    Screw self-preservation. Maybe in the interests of my own pleasure I’d rather go through the divorce, or do the jail time. If I should act contrary to your supposed ideas about my best interests, who are you to judge?

    themaiden:

    I suppose you found Dahmer funny as well. I await part two.

  29. 29 On July 2nd, 2006, mouse said:

    this thread brings back memories of jr. high and trying to argue with people on usenet about evolution vs. creationism, athiesm vs. belief in god, etc.

    i’m actually an athiest but it can be really annoying to have to admit that to people.

    i’ve also dabbled in enough Zen / buddhism / eastern beliefs to know that not everyone believes in the judeo-christian, western ideal of God as a creator/architect.

    some of the eastern beliefs in “god” (as described by guys like Alan Watts) do not actually conflict with science & ideas like the big bang, etc.

  30. 30 On July 2nd, 2006, Red said:

    You need to finish this instead of having two parts-it doesnt make sense to stop there and have a part two-just make it longer

  31. 31 On July 2nd, 2006, Clayton Myers said:

    To Leroy and those like him:
    You’re confusing questions of morality with questions of capability. Of course you can do what you like. This is true whether you believe in god or not. The question under discussion is whether you should.

    It seems that you demand that someone force you to be good, whether with religion (which you deny) or with logic (which you seem to believe is not up to the task) But, as you point out, you are free to ignore either.

    Morality, religious or otherwise, is not a matter of legality. It is a matter of recognizing that those shapes that you occasionally perceive are people, like you, with the same response to pain and mistreatment: “please stop.”

  32. 32 On July 2nd, 2006, Leroy said:

    Clayton:

    Your idea of good relies on a circular definition. I may do what I like, *and* you have no right to say that it is either good or evil. Seriously, you don’t. Other people may have the same response to pain and mistreatment as I would in a given situation, but that’s not enough to convince me that something is either good or evil. Prove to me that inflicting pain is wrong.

  33. 33 On July 2nd, 2006, Leroy said:

    One other thing: I am flat out AMAZED that no one here is taking me seriously. I am taking you all seriously and your arguments at face value. If you cannot take me seriously, perhaps you need to broaden your horizons a bit and research some of the modern-day attrocities that routinely fly under the radar of (or are ignored by) the affluent Western world at large (both in the name of religion and not). Whether or not I really live according to what I’ve been saying, there are plenty who do. I’m not trolling — I’m really trying to provoke thought.

  34. 34 On July 2nd, 2006, Jake said:

    Leroy:

    You said:

    “You speak of a ‘perfectly decent and honorable moral code’ to which you adhere, contrasted with ‘hideously evil thoughts’. Let me be brutally honest. I see no basis for such distinctions, and until I can be persuaded that such a basis exists, I will continue in my current vein of thought.”

    ————

    Let me try to articulate a basis for such distinctions that does not rely on a belief in “God.”

    In order to do so, there must be some agreement on the definition of evil. What if we say that “evil” is that which (for whatever reason) should be avoided. I would then start with the proposition that the evolution of a species towards the fulfillment of its potential is a “good” thing. Conditions that promote higher (more complex) intellectual, emotional and physical functioning and psychological well-being (happiness) for the greatest number of that species, are good for that species. On that proposition alone, one could justify a code of ethics that would mirror the moral teachings espoused by the traditional religions of the world - without having to believe in God.

    What say you?

  35. 35 On July 2nd, 2006, Like Your Work » Blog Archive » links for 2006-07-03 said:

    [...] hell’s handmaiden » Blog Archive » Atheists are bad, bad people… man (tags: religion) [...]

  36. 36 On July 2nd, 2006, Sheryl said:

    I didn’t read the comments above, but I will. As a Christian, I’m appalled by this report, because in my opinion it is the antithesis of Christianity. There are many moral athiests, and many immoral Christians. Christianity is a system of beliefs, built around the person of Christ, NOT a moral code. Christians are no different than any other people on the planet. This kind of belief not only puts people who don’t believe in God in a bad light, but puts an enormous pressure on Christians to “be better, ” which is SO not the point of the whole thing. I know a truckload of people who are far better behaved that I am, who couldn’t give two figs about Jesus.

  37. 37 On July 2nd, 2006, G Roper said:

    I second Rnadom’s answers:
    reciprocal altruism is, in the long run, the best reason to not harm others. This is sometimes called the “Golden Rule” or “scratch my back, I’ll scratch yours.”

    I believe Rnadom’s answer also is an answer to Leroy’s dilemma.

    In response to Leroy’s particular request “Prove to me that inflicting pain is wrong” I offer the following:

    1. If all live by that code, then everyone would be in pain - not an optimal situation for Leroy.

    2. If some live by that code, then their victims would be in pain - again not an optimal situation. This might not be bad for Leroy, although the possibility remains.

    3. In particular, in either case, _you_ might become a victim, which is non-optimal for you. This would be sub-optimal for Leroy.

    4. It may not be possible to avoid becoming a victim. The only way to avoid being a victim is to either avoid people entirely, or to “Do unto them before they do unto you!” - both definitely sub-optimal solutions.

    BTW (4) applies to the (normal?) world today.

    5. In contrast, a world where a strategy called “Tit for Tat” [a variant of the Golden Rule] is applied appears, in social and mathematical experiments, to be optimal for all participants. For details see:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_Rule_(ethics)#Reciprocal_altruism_and_Tit_for_tat

    6. Social and mathematical experiments in reciprocal behavior indicate that the Golden Rule is optimal with one modification: if another participant crosses you, the optimal response is to cross them the next chance you get.

    All this with no “God” required! Yet more evidence that good mathematics can overcome most any problem.

  38. 38 On July 5th, 2006, Jordan Greenaway said:

    Trackback - http://www.logicalcloud.com/article/7/rant-1-atheists-trusted-least-of-all-social-groups

    I’ve decided to settle it. After investigating which religion is generally disliked (the most) I chanced upon a nice post…

  39. 39 On July 13th, 2006, hell’s handmaiden » Blog Archive » Atheists are bad, bad people… Part II said:

    [...] Atheists trusted least of all social groups., Atheists are bad, bad people… man, Loving the Bible to death, but loving the truth more., Killing in the name of… and Local Christian Coalition Official Did Molest, Family Members Tell ‘The Oregonian’ « Atheists are bad, bad people… man Atheists are bad, bad people… The Conclusion! » [...]

  40. 40 On July 18th, 2006, Impaler said:

    See, mortals often use circular argument to try to prove a point. If society was free, it would be self policing, If my neighbor molests my child, I kill molester. If a bully picks on a neighbor, I pick on the bully. Not a matter of if one believes in G-D, but of moral authority of the society, and society’s rights to punish the bad guy. But authority itself is not granted by G-D, but by the actions of man that will cause the support of a majority of the society he represents to follow him (hopefully with as little corruption as possible).

    But G-D is here to stay, lawyers are not. We need to stop trying to legislate Darwinism, (seat belt law, helmet law, no longer legal to assault on point of honor.) and let the strong lead….. And the stupid, GET OUT OF THE GENE POOL.

    So Sayeth the Impaler!

  41. 41 On July 18th, 2006, themaiden said:

    Well… Impaler,

    I’m not sure what point you are trying to make. That is one monumentally confused bit of writing. It seems to come from several points of view all at the same time.

  42. 42 On July 22nd, 2006, Beware of the Dogma said:

    Carnival of the Godless #45: Godless in Godzone…

    Welcome all ye Freethinkers to this, the 45th Carnival of the Godless.  Today’s event is being beamed to you all the way from the South Pacific islands of New Zealand (or, as some theists like to call it, GodZone), the land of Hakas and Hobbit…

  43. 43 On July 29th, 2006, beepbeepitsme said:

    “Go to Heaven for the climate, Hell for the company.” Mark Twain

  44. 44 On July 31st, 2006, paul said:

    It’s really ironic. Being bad means not playing the game. Atheists have no excuse for being bad. Theists do. They can blame the devil, repent and avoid responsibility.

  45. 45 On August 7th, 2006, Me said:

    What of the possibility that while many may not believe in “God”, they are still of Him, and therefore have an innate moral compass.

    Many of that believe in God do not necessarily believe that HE is “hands-on” but rather has left us to our own freewill. The choices are yours to make, right or wrong. However, if thoughtful enough, most will know how to discern “right from wrong”, barring any mental issues or wrongful guidance by others.

    What I find interesting is the inclination of many of the types of people here to “lump” religious people together. How ignorant.

    You know nothing about me. My beliefs, my actions…but I see plenty of “atheists” here persecuting ALL religious people as if they are all the same.

    So does that mean all atheists are the same?

    Good to see ignorance is alive and well on both sides.

  46. 46 On August 7th, 2006, themaiden said:

    What of the idea that “while many may not believe in “God”, they are still of Him”? What of the idea I favor that we are all “of” the Supernal Purple TeleTubbie, whether we believe so or not? Your idea is as hollow as mine, the only difference being that people are so accustomed to your formulation that they accept it without question, instead of reflecting and realizing that their is no substance to the comment unless you first prove that God actually exists.

    Your ‘hands-on’ point is irrelevant if not positively a red herring. It doesn’t matter whether God is hands on or hands off if he in waiting in the wings to reward or punish.

    And as for lumping, what lumping are you talking about? Most of the article is about atheists not religious people and I am responding to a particular claim that I have seen made many times. If you do not make the claim to which I respond, you should not feel yourself included in the criticism.

  47. 47 On August 15th, 2006, Opal said:

    It’s quite the oppososite, actually. It’s people who don’t have a rhythm in their lives and attitudes of ethics - who feel led to become religious - so that they can have a reminder hanging over their heads about what is right, and what is wrong. Look at the people in congress in the usa, now, for instance. They are mostly all the product of a fundamental christian movement of the 1990s to infuse the leadership of the usa with their friends and peers. They have no qualms about war. Why? Because they don’t have a good bearing on how to live an ethical life.

  48. 48 On August 15th, 2006, hell’s handmaiden » Blog Archive » The Nazis and First Peter said:

    [...] During the Nuremburg trails defendants claimed, notoriously, that they were just following orders. Most people today respond to this fact, to this excuse, with a kind of breathless shock. “How could so many people ‘just follow orders’ to slaughter millions? And how could a whole nation allow it to happen?” These are good questions, and it seems that the answers usually involve appeals to Hitler’s carisma, to mass ignorance, or to the tragic effects of godlessness– this latter despite the fact that neither Hitler, nor the people of Hitler’s Germany, were godless. The Nazi nightmare, in fact, was born of a rather pious nation, and Hitler himself refers to– stealing lines or paraphrasing– the Bible to great effect in Mein Kampf. [...]

  49. 49 On September 3rd, 2006, kirsten & jessie said:

    hey.. i just wanted to say that not all atheists are bad people, me and my friends are nearly all atheist’s and we are just like every normall person our familys still do things together. just because someone doesnt believe in what others believe in doesnt mean there a bad person. we are friends with people of other religions and we are not rasist or anything like that. so dont go dissen people who arnt the same as you, all it seams like to us is that your scared of whats not the same. that wont get you anywhere in life. even we know that and we are still in high school!

  50. 50 On September 3rd, 2006, themaiden said:

    Kirsten and Jessie,

    Did you… uh… read the article at all? I ask because it looks as if you didn’t make it past the title.

  51. 51 On September 22nd, 2006, hell’s handmaiden » Blog Archive » Evolution isn’t theology said:

    [...] Now, I have argued, much as Shermer does briefly in his points three, four and five, that the nature of social interaction can be used to derive an ethics very much like the ethics purportedly based upon religious sentiment, which, as C.S. Lewis noted, do not change much from culture to culture. In fact, I argue that those religious ethical systems are expressions of, are derivative of, the mechanisms of social interaction. However, tying such an argument specifically to ‘the Christian’ concepts of human nature and morality is taking the idea much to far, and such overextension introduces a number of factors that simply should not be there. Tying the idea to Christianity in particular rules out numerous equivalent systems of morality and suggests, among other things, that Christianity is at the top of a ladder of ‘goodness’. I can’t help but think that Shermer’s decision to name Christianity is a bit of Orwellian word-play employed to beg the faithful into buying the theory of evolution. I don’t think it is honest. [...]

  52. 52 On December 2nd, 2006, hell’s handmaiden » Blog Archive » Beckwith, Darwinian Conservatism, and Natural Law said:

    [...] Francis Beckwith has posted a teaser, at RightReason, to a review of a book, Darwinian Conservatism, by Larry Arnhart. It caught my attention because Arnhart seems to be making an argument similar to the the one I made in a series of posts beginning with Atheists are bad, bad people… man. Of course, there are differences. I am godless; Arnhart is not, for one. [...]

  53. 53 On December 6th, 2006, hell’s handmaiden » Blog Archive » Hate Figures du Jour said:

    [...] Yes, I quoted a large chunk, but please follow the link and read on. There is more, much more. On the other hand, though, we all know that Atheists are bad, bad people. And I’m hoping the name is an Alice Cooper reference [back]Popularity: unrankedLove the post? Hate it? Please let me know. Leave a comment and spread the word:These icons link to social bookmarking sites where readers can share and discover new web pages. [...]

  54. 54 On January 8th, 2007, hell’s handmaiden » Blog Archive » Daily Irreverence said:

    [...] has the Carnival of the Godless this time around. It contains a good piece from Abstract Nonsense, for example, and another good one from Kingdom of Heathen, which addresses the same topic as does my own Atheists are bad, bad people, …man. Enjoy. [...]

  55. 55 On April 2nd, 2007, hell’s handmaiden » Blog Archive » Religion? Culture? Adaptation? said:

    [...] Sure. Yes, it is. It is adaptive in the same way that any other element of culture is adaptive, and I object to McNeil’s conditions #2 and #3 for this reason. You can’t really apply those conditions to culture in general, and I see no reason to apply it to a subset. [...]

  56. 56 On April 7th, 2007, hell’s handmaiden » Blog Archive » Blogs for Human Rights said:

    [...] I hope not, because humans don’t do a lot on their own. Take the first item on Mark’s list– live. It seems obvious that people have a right to live. Likewise, it seems rather obvious that people can live “on their own’, but can they? Does living fit Noonan’s criteria? Not really. Humans are social animals. We don’t live very long or very well in the utter absence of other humans, in the absense of society. By Noonan’s formula, we therefore don’t have the right to live. After all, we can’t very well do it alone, and the rare person who can can’t reproduce so the whole endeavor ends there. [...]

  57. 57 On May 18th, 2007, Atheists are bad, bad people... The Conclusion! | hell's handmaiden said:

    [...] began Part I with the statement that, according to one view, “We need the boogeyman under the bed, and we [...]

  58. 58 On May 25th, 2007, Religion? Culture? Adaptation? | hell's handmaiden said:

    [...] Yes, it is. It is adaptive in the same way that any other element of culture is adaptive, and I object to McNeil’s conditions #2 and #3 for this reason. You can’t really apply [...]

  59. 59 On May 27th, 2007, Evolution isn't theology | hell's handmaiden said:

    [...] I have argued, much as Shermer does briefly in his points three, four and five, that the nature of social [...]

  60. 60 On May 27th, 2007, Atheists are bad, bad people... Part II | hell's handmaiden said:

    [...] I left Part I of this article with this question hanging: “Is it perhaps not the reality of God that matters, but only the [...]

  61. 61 On May 28th, 2007, Blogs for Human Rights | hell's handmaiden said:

    [...] live “on their own’, but can they? Does living fit Noonan’s criteria? Not really. Humans are social animals. We don’t live very long or very well in the utter absence of other humans, in the absense of [...]

  62. 62 On May 29th, 2007, The Nazis and First Peter | hell's handmaiden said:

    [...] that the answers usually involve appeals to Hitler’s carisma, to mass ignorance, or to the tragic effects of godlessness– this latter despite the fact that neither Hitler, nor the people of Hitler’s Germany, [...]

  63. 63 On July 11th, 2007, U kiddin me? said:

    “ultimate self-interested actor who doesn’t care about anyone but themselves” and “that religion and good morals are one and the same”. Americans consequently “rate atheists below Muslims, recent immigrants, homosexuals and other groups as “sharing their vision of American society.”

    Wow. Atheists aren’t self-centered. They are trying to make it equal for everyone. The reason why they are rated SO LOW is because over 90 percent of america is religious. Had this poll been taken in Sweden, the result would be TOTALLY different. Atheists are not evil. IF you think they are than I hope there is still air to breathe when your head is that far up your ass. If atheists were against morals how come we aint blowin up shit or doing crazy things. You could say “oh yah but Joseph stalin killed all those people and he was an atheist” Yeah but he also had fucking mental disorders. HE didnt kill those people because he was an atheist so get your facts straight for pete sakes im tired of seeing so many un educated people. HOw can you judge someone so harshly when you don’t even learn about them. SHame on you.

  64. 64 On July 11th, 2007, themaiden said:

    U Kiddin me,

    I wonder, did you make it past the first paragraph?

  65. 65 On September 2nd, 2007, The Humanist Symposium #7 - Bligbi said:

    [...] reminds us all that the more theists speak the more they repeat themselves in this oldie but goodie Atheists are bad, bad people…..man. And they wonder why we don’t have any “new” arguments, [...]

  66. 66 On September 2nd, 2007, Denis Loubet said:

    I was a guest on an atheist call-in show, and was confronted by the theist question “what keeps you from raping and killing?” I responded by asking him if that was what he would rather be doing if not for the edicts of his god. Rather than surrender the point, which he apparently just couldn’t do, he answered “Yes.”

    I like to think he didn’t mean it.

  67. 67 On September 2nd, 2007, themaiden said:

    Denis,

    I’d like to think so too. Still, it does worry me that at least some of the faithful do seem to feel that fear of God is the only thing keeping them from homicidal mania.

  68. 68 On January 31st, 2008, an atheist said:

    Anti-Atheism is the most widely accepted form of bigotry. Why do people hate us so much?

  69. 69 On January 31st, 2008, themaiden said:

    an athiest,

    Because without God there is nothing to stop us from stealing and raping.

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