3rd July 2006 Stumble it!

Atheists are bad, bad people… The Conclusion!

posted in Philosophy by themaiden |

I began Part I with the statement that, according to one view, “We need the boogeyman under the bed, and we need a supernatural blankie. God, the good shepherd, lures us to the straight and narrow with promises of heaven like an old man luring a little girl with candy, while promising the horrors of hell if she tells. In the absence of such bribing and bullying, the idea goes, we’ll run wild like the rabid beasts we are.” And I ended Part II with the questions: “What then, keeps us in line? Where do humans get their moral codes? Why isn’t the world full of Jeffrey Dahmers?”

So, why aren’t we all knife wielding rapists, thieves and cartoonish super-villians? Why don’t we run rampant like Dahmer, or de Sade, or like the characters in Natural Born Killers? Why don’t we, in general, run wild like was seen in Rwanda in ‘94? What holds this human collage together?

Well, “Do wild beasts run wild?” Oddly enough, the answer is “No!” Animals do not run wild. They may not follow our rules, but animals do follow rules. Sociobiology has demonstrated this over and over again. This is true certainly of mammals, but also of birds, insects, and fish, to make a short list. The social animals, least of all, run wild. But why? Why should a baboon, with knife-like canines, defer to the wishes of another baboon? Why should a lion give up part of the kill? Why not fight to the death and winner take all?

The answer is outrageously simple: Fights to the death usually mean everyone loses. The injuries sustained in those battles stand a good chance of killing both combatants, not just the loser. No group will survive very long if its members kill each other. The statement is almost tautological. That is not to say that such fights don’t happen, but only that should they become too frequent, the animals involved cease to exist. The group ceases to exist. Consequently, animals that do manage to survive and reproduce generation after generation, are also animals that deal with stress and strain in ways which, for the most part, do not involve ruthlessly killing each other. This is the very root of ethics and morality.

Of course, in some species the rules are very, very rudimentary, but others depend upon them a great deal. These are the social animals– animals in which individual members of the species cannot survive outside of a group. Penguins depend upon group mass to survive the cold. Wolves depend upon the pack for the hunt. Most primates, not the mention the huge variety of herd animals, depend upon the social group for protection. Social animals which manage to get themselves kicked out of the group loose their ability to reproduce, their ability to feed effectively and the protection of the mob. Without the group, the individual animals die. This is not a very good outcome for any creature involved.

Humans are by far the most social of the social animals, and our rules the most complicated. We’ve even taken to blaming our social dynamics on beings no one has ever seen. Still, the driving force beneath those rules is a very simple: co-exist, work together– in any of hundreds of possible ways– or die. We are social animals, we behave because the other options are pretty harsh. The calculation is fairly simple, though it lacks the metaphysical ‘kick’ provided by an appeal to the supernatural.

We depend upon each other. We survive poorly in true isolation. Even those who live in relative solitude far from other habitations depend upon the activities of other humans for food, trade, tools and the like. We have no claws, but we can make tools– many of which require cooperative effort to build and to use. We are scrawny, awkward and weak, relative most large animals, but we can organize packs like no other. Culture is our teeth, our fur, and our claws. Behavioral chaos would quickly destroy it. Rules keep that chaos in check. We don’t run wild because in general it is a bad idea.

Of course, reason will have no more effect on the insane and the sociopathic than it will have on emphysema. Religion, in general, will have as little effect. Interestingly, though, the system depends very little upon what an individual believes about morality or ethics. This, of course, is in direct contrast to the way that most people seem to conceive of ethics and morality, as conventions that depend upon thought or upon revelation. I argue that it doesn’t, and never has, worked that way– at least at its most basic level. An individual who sufficiently disrupts a community, is removed from the community– whether that means death, prison or banishment. Whatever the particular consequence, the disruptive individual is no longer in the society and that is what matters to the society.

Consider what happened to Dahmer, quoted in the first installment as asking “what’s the point of trying to modify your behaviour to keep it within acceptable ranges?” Dahmer was imprisoned and is now dead. He failed to behave, and was removed from society. What he believed about his behavior hardly matters. On the other hand, a culture which allowed such behavior would soon perish or be forced to change its collective mind. Most people realize this conclusion almost intuitively. A society of unchecked serial killers would soon self destruct. Consequently, laws– rules– are made against such behavior. Other individuals following similar paths face similar consequences.

The system is self correcting, and at its core has little to do with what people believe. Violation of these rules on a large scale means collective suicide. There will always be a few rule breakers, but collective suicide means a lot of people have to break the rules, as also happens occasionally as in Rwanda, for example. But, again, that is the exception not the rule, and it proves my point that such behavior cannot continue for long.

Ethics and morality are the dynamics of human interaction, of cooperation, of co-existence, and they derive from nothing other than experience. They are collective and codified realizations about what it takes for populations of people to survive. Those rules are what we humans call ‘morality’, though we’ve dressed them in thick cloaks of religion and philosophy over the past few thousand years.

Some may argue that this does not describe a proper morality. I’d argue that this is what morality has always been. Cultures have built various religious edifices atop it, but the base or the structure has always been social dynamics and survival.

Arguing from this social dynamics core to particular moral systems, of which the world has several, is not something I intend to do here.

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There are currently 27 responses to “Atheists are bad, bad people… The Conclusion!”

Why not let us know what you think by adding your own comment! Your opinion is as valid as anyone elses, so come on... let us know what you think.

  1. 1 On July 3rd, 2006, D said:

    Check out “The Moral Animal”, a book about the emerging science of evolutionary psychology which seeks to show how much of human behavior - especially that considered “moral” - is actually evolved. It includes many interesting examples of “moral” behavior shared by isolated peoples independant of religion and even among other primates.

  2. 2 On July 3rd, 2006, Friendly Neighborhood DJ said:

    This is a fantastic series of posts–very well reasoned and well supported. Kudos!

  3. 3 On July 3rd, 2006, Liron said:

    Very nice.

  4. 4 On July 3rd, 2006, l0b0 said:

    This is the stuff of revelation (and not the religious kind)! This is really the kind of stuff children should be learning in school - Not that ethics was “invented” when Moses found somebody’s Culture 101 study notes.

  5. 5 On July 3rd, 2006, Mike said:

    A very long essay that explains nothing. If only the lions and baboons could use the free will and moral compuctions of, say, Hitler or Pol Pot or even the Catholic Church to guide their lives instead of just their silly survival dynamics.

  6. 6 On July 3rd, 2006, Niero said:

    I’ve been much happier since I went agnostic. No sense in fighting about the details with other people. If you don’t agree and post a counterpoint, I will not reply. I’ve been much happier since I also became a pacifist.

  7. 7 On July 3rd, 2006, themaiden said:

    I’ll look into that book, thanks. If I may offer a suggestion of my own, look into Marvin Harris, whose ideas cultural ecology I credit with much of the underpinnings of these essays.

  8. 8 On July 3rd, 2006, themaiden said:

    DJ, Liron, and l0b0… many thanks.

    Niero, I\’ve known many who take positions similar to yours. I just don\’t have it in me. As someone said in a comment to Part II, it would be funny if not for the bloodshed.

  9. 9 On July 3rd, 2006, themaiden said:

    Mike, what are you talking about? I followed you up to ‘explains nothing’. After that, there is some gibberish about baboon Pol Pots and the Catholic Church… ?

  10. 10 On July 4th, 2006, Shalmanese said:

    You’ve committed the rather common fallacy known as “group selection” in which you posit that animals will not do something if it is detrimental to the survival prospects of the group. Group selection in it’s most basic form does not work. If there is an action which negatively affects the survival of the group yet positively affects the survival of the individual, then it will be selected for.

  11. 11 On July 4th, 2006, themaiden said:

    If we were living in the 1960s, when group selection was considered negligible, you might be able to support your statements with some science. However, since then things have changed. Forty years is a long time. Research as early as the seventies started to show that group selection is more effective than its critics realized. Currently, the idea is looking pretty good, though it still has detractors. At best, it cannot be called a ‘fallacy’– making your choice of terms a misuse of the word on two different levels– but only a debatable or controversial position.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Group_selection

    You may also want to read about the chickens.

    http://www.hells-handmaiden.com/?p=825

    Besides, there is a very fine line between ‘group’ and ‘individual’ selection, depending more upon perspective than anything, and I am not entirely sure that I argued the former to the exclusion of the latter.

  12. 12 On July 4th, 2006, Izaak Alpert said:

    Excellent post

  13. 13 On July 13th, 2006, hell’s handmaiden » Blog Archive » C.S. Lewis’ Proof of God said:

    [...] In other words, he fails to note a very obvious alternative to his conclusion. It is a critical failure, since his argument is in many ways a proof by elimination. As uttered famously by Arthur Conan Doyle’s Sherlock Holmes, “when you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth”. Lewis attempts just such a process. He claims that nothing else but God can explain the presence of cross-cultural moral similarities, but rather than consider and eliminate the impossible, he seems to have simply stated the improbable and called it a day, barely considering that there are alternative solutions to his puzzle, and any reasonable alternative is enough to cause this kind of argument to collapse. For the long version of this case see Atheists are bad, bad people… The Conclusion [back]Popularity: 37%Share and Enjoy:These icons link to social bookmarking sites where readers can share and discover new web pages. [...]

  14. 14 On July 23rd, 2006, Skeptico said:

    Shalmanese:

    Re: Group selection in it’s most basic form does not work. If there is an action which negatively affects the survival of the group yet positively affects the survival of the individual, then it will be selected for.

    Selection is not about survival per se, it is about fitness to reproduce. If an individual commits an action which negatively affects the survival of the group, that individual may be banished from the group, or at least may not be able to mate within the group. Consequently, the traits that negatively affect the survival of the group will not be passed on.

  15. 15 On July 23rd, 2006, Skeptico said:

    Good post. Morality is most likely an evolved trait that has merely been appropriated by religion. Michael Shermer’s The Science of Good and Evil is a good read on this subject.

  16. 16 On July 23rd, 2006, themaiden said:

    I’m already a Shermer fan. I’ll try to get a copy of that book.

  17. 17 On November 29th, 2006, PintofStout said:

    Great series of posts. I realize this was several months ago, but thought I’d leave my thoughts here.

    I sometimes think that in situations where one can get away with it, a fight to the death would ensue, as opposed to some peaceful exchange or interaction. By getting away with it, I mean without being harmed to the extent of not functioning or dying also. This implies a might-makes-right kind of morality where it is only the appearence of near-equal power that keeps things relatively peaceful.

  18. 18 On November 29th, 2006, themaiden said:

    I don’t think it is correct to infer might-makes-right. While you could certainly find individual cases where such a description applies, it doesn’t generalize; and what I am arguing is that morality is almost an averaging of human successful behaviors. The odd case certainly occurs but it doesn’t effect the end result much.

    For example, if two people were stuck on a raft perhaps might-makes-right describes the interaction. But two people farming a bit of land, or hearding goats, or hunting…? And then remember that humans do not survive well alone, or even in pairs, so by necessity you are talking about collections of people. The loners simply die off, and with their deaths go thier moralities.

  19. 19 On December 4th, 2006, PintofStout said:

    I was saying might makes right in individual affairs, but it also extrapolates to groups. For one individual to exercise might makes right on an individual basis inside a group, they’d have to be - or appear to be - mightier than the entire group as a whole for fear of retaliation. That being said, it is also an evolved behavior (not just in humans) to work together for greater prosperity, as you noted in the piece.

    I guess maybe I was looking toward positive and negative rights in the context of governments when I was thinking of might-makes-right, mostly in response to the libertarian crowd who believe they have rights because they are human and that their belief will protect them from harm.

  20. 20 On December 4th, 2006, themaiden said:

    Hi PintofStout,

    I don’t deny that there are plenty of examples of “might makes right” behavior, even on large scales. The 1900s saw Stalin and Hitler, after all. What I deny is that morality derives from these behaviors, and it is morality that is the subject of these essays.

    The moral sentiment, I maintain, would arise from a collective– hodge-podge and uneven– group realization that regimes such as Stalin’s and Hitler’s are really pretty bad for most people involved. They are counter-productive ultimately. Societies built upon such systems fail to survive for very long. We’ve built a moral system around watching what fails and what doesn’t. We’ve built it by experiment, essentially.

    I have some substantial problems with libertarianism myself. While I do hold to the libertarian idea that we want a minimal functional government, it seems to me that most libertarians want a government so minimal that it doesn’t function.

  21. 21 On January 14th, 2007, Pogo Stick said:

    Is there any better, or easier blog software out there than this? i need something php based that doesnt kill MySQL. Any techie types on this thread that can point me in the right direction?

  22. 22 On March 9th, 2007, Pastbyer said:

    Just passing through and wanted to say that I agree wholeheartedly with your reasoning for the evolutionary basis of morality. It’s something that’s been sitting in the back of my mind for a long time now, and you have articulated it much better than I could have.

  23. 23 On March 9th, 2007, themaiden said:

    Thank you, Pastbyer. I appreciate it.

  24. 24 On May 25th, 2007, C.S. Lewis' Proof of God | hell's handmaiden said:

    [...] long, these problems serve as limits on social structure. ((For the long version of this case see Atheists are bad, bad people… The Conclusion)) The result is the similarity of culture to which Lewis appeals. In short, and as I wrote on [...]

  25. 25 On March 3rd, 2008, TenTenTwo.com said:

    Check out Plato’s dialogs, especially the Republic. Morality can be derived completely from reason, and it can be reasoned that the just person will lead a happier life than the unjust. Therefore it is in a person’s own best interests not to kill, steal, rape, or commit any of the various crimes that are committed by ignorant people.

  26. 26 On March 5th, 2008, themaiden said:

    TenTenTwo,

    I actually don’t think it is possible to derive morality from ‘reason’– scare quotes because that is a very loaded term– and if anyone has done it, Plato didn’t.

  27. 27 On March 5th, 2008, tabletop gamer said:

    Interesting article.

    I truly enjoy when people claim that an atheist or agnostic can not have morals due to the lack of religion (especially when most religions are based on the threat of a cosmic spanking of epic proportions).

    As for your comment #20 about societies built on “might makes right” and how they fail to survive for long… I don’t know that I agree.

    Hate is an amazing glue for holding a group of people together. The societies that use hate/fear die out early only when they become to ambitious in eliminating that which they hate/fear. They either become a feared/hated group by too many others that fight back or run out of targets for their negative passion. Either way, they’ve lost numbers of passionate followers.

    (Tangent Alert!) In my opinion, that is the primary reason that there could be no utopia. If all is good, good becomes meaningless. When good becomes meaningless, no one cares about it. When people don’t care about it, it falls apart.

    Anyways… I think you might enjoy a couple of books that sort of relate to the topic. “Hatred: The Psychological Descent into Violence” by Dr. Gaylin and “The Lucifer Principle: A Scientific Expedition into the Forces of History” by Bloom (Bloom might be a little lighter on the science than the title implies but it still contains a lot of truth)

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