13th July 2006 Stumble it!

C.S. Lewis, Instinct, and the Moral Law

posted in Philosophy by themaiden |

In Book I, Chapter I, of Mere Christianity, Lewis presents an argument for the existence of God, which rests on the idea that people worldwide hold to very similar standards of morality. This, according to Lewis, points to the presence of a God. Nothing else, according to him, can explain the cross-cultural similarities. I suggest that there is another explaination, and that Lewis merely “stated the improbable and called it a day”.

Several people have reacted to this critique by claiming that Lewis dealt with my objections in Chapter 2 of that same book, and there is some truth to this claim. Lewis does discuss the possibility that instinct could account for the similarities in cross-cultural moral sentiment he notes– which in the chapter he’s taken to calling the ‘Moral Law’–, and gives a series of reasons why this idea should be dismissed. He then continues to address the idea that his ‘Moral Law’ could be the result of social convention. This latter is the more interesting of his arguments, and it more directly anticipates my criticism, but I’ll take things in his order and begin with instincts.

In many ways, a critique of Lewis’ arguments about instinct is a pointless exercise on my part, because I agree with him that the ‘moral law’ is nothing like anything that could be called an instinct, which he defines loosely as “a strong want or desire to act in a certain way” and I add that, presumably, he means this strong desire to have some biological basis. He is responding to the question, ‘Isn’t what you call the Moral Law simply our herd instinct and hasn’t it been developed just like all our other instincts?’ It is important to note specifically that what he is addressing is the idea that the Moral Law, as he calls it, is an instinct, or an instinctual reaction, along the lines of the ‘fight or flight’ impulse or an infant’s suckling reaction. Lewis himself refers to the ‘herd’ instinct. He acknowledges that people do experience certain instinctual emotions, or compulsions, and writes:

But feeling a desire to help is quite different from feeling that you ought to help whether you want to or not. Supposing you hear a cry for help from a man in danger. You will probably feel two desires — one desire to give help (due to your herd instinct), the other a desire to keep out of danger (due to the instinct for self-preservation). But you will find inside you, in addition to these two impulses, a third thing which tells you that you ought to follow the impulse to help, and suppress the impulse to run away. Now this thing that judges between two instincts, that decides which should be encouraged, cannot itself be either of them.

Mere Christianity, Book 1, Chapter 2

Lewis does something rather interesting in this passage, and speaks of the “moral law” almost as if it were some kind of sentient agency. The “thing that judges between”, the third thing, is in his calculation the moral law, and it seems to work as a brain lording over the instincts. This is a new twist to the story, as he doesn’t seem to have previously given it such power to actively decide between behaviors, and I am not entirely sure that it is consistent with his other uses of the term. Of course, it is possible that Lewis anthropomorphized the idea unintentionally, and what he means is that the “Moral Law” is the gauge we use when making decisions. Either way, his conclusion that the “Moral Law” must be responsible is unwarranted. In the first case, he substitutes an abstraction for a known, physical, decision making organ– the brain. Substituting some “third thing” for a thing known to perform the same function is indefensible, at best. In the second case, he assumes that we need some external, even metaphysical standard, in order to decide between two things.

Lewis’ case is compelling in the light he presents it, but consider that we make hundreds of decisions a day and never invoke any “third thing” as a guide. We decide to eat and what to eat, usually, several times a day. We may consider our weight, our vanity, and what “just sounds good”; but few, if any of us, invoke a “third thing”. The decision to speed or not to speed is, in my experience, typically made on the basis of time vs. the cost of the ticket and not upon the basis of any “third thing”. A decision to hit, or not to hit, during a game of Blackjack is made with no invocation of external entities. Likewise, to swing or to not swing at a baseball is a decision made without quizzing the heavens. In these cases, we take it for granted that our brains are capable of deciding between our various options without referring to some metaphysical slide-rule to do so. Why then can we not also make the decisions Lewis discusses without referring to such a rule?

In effect, Lewis ignores the obvious actions of the brain and treats humans as machines driven by instinct and instinct alone. That is the only circumstance wherein his argument makes sense, yet it is a horrible oversimplification. This error is perhaps partially forgivable given the question he set out to answer, but what is not forgivable is that he answered the question with such a gross absurdity when other responses were available to him. He seems to be unaware that, or perhaps he denies that, people can and do weigh desires and circumstances and come to decisions without having to read the answer from some cosmic rule book. His second and third reasons as to why the “Moral Law is not simply one of our instincts” both depend upon the same mistake. Concerning his second reason he writes:

If two instincts are in conflict, and there is nothing in a creature’s mind except those two instincts, obviously the stronger of the two must win. … You probably want to be safe much more than you want to help the man who is drowning: but the Moral Law tells you to help him all the same. And surely it often tells us to try to make the right impulse stronger than it naturally is? I mean, we often feel it our duty to stimulate the herd instinct, by waking up our imaginations and arousing our pity and so on, so as to get up enough steam for doing the right thing. But clearly we are not acting from instinct when we set about making an instinct stronger than it is. The thing that says to you, ‘Your herd instinct is asleep. Wake it up,’ cannot itself be the herd instinct.
Mere Christianity, Book 1, Chapter 2

Granted, people do act and think just as Lewis describes, but here again, to neglects important elements of the story. We are not machines driven only by instinct. In fact, in humans and in all other primates, instinct plays a very subordinate role in behavior. Most behavior is learned. We do have some instincts, but learned behavior and thought often overrides them. Lewis blithely ignores these factors, choosing again to treat humans like a collection of cogs, sprockets, gears, wheels, belts and the like. This is ridiculous. We never experience just a collision of desires as Lewis presents. We calculate consequences based upon circumstances– legal issues, religious affiliations, relationships with the drowning person, other desires such as the desire to be a hero or the hope for a reward. No “third thing” need be invoked to break the deadlock. Our brains turn the trick quite nicely, and this also answers Lewis’ third take on the “third thing”. Our rational capabilities provide the ‘tune’ to which Lewis refers. Thought directs the instincts. There is no need for a “third thing”. Postulating it is like postulating a metaphysical ruler to which I can appeal for decisions about my next move in a game of cards.

I feel I need to make it clear that while I find much wrong with Lewis’ reasoning on the subject of the instincts and the “Moral Law”, I do not disagree with his conclusion that this “law” is no instinct. I argue that this “Moral Law”– really, the appearance of cross-cultural similarities in moral sentiment– is something far more complicated than instinct, though still explainable without an appeal to the divine.

Lewis’ next step is to address the question, “Isn’t what you call the Moral Law just a social convention, something that is put into us by education?” This is the most interesting part for me since it sounds in many ways like my own opinions. He writes:

We all learned the multiplication table at school. A child who grew up alone on a desert island would not know it. But surely it does not follow that the multiplication table is simply a human convention, something human beings made up for themselves and might have made different if they had liked? … some of the things we learn are mere conventions which might have been different — we learn to keep to the left of the road, but it might just as well have been the rule to keep to the right — and others of them, like mathematics, are real truths. The questions is to which class the Law of Human Nature belongs.

Mere Christianity, Book 1, Chapter 2

To determine “to which class the Law of Human Nature belongs”, Lewis provides two arguments– the first of which is the same argument he provides in Chapter 1. He somewhat inexplicably responds to an objection by repeating the same argument which provoked the objection, and this means that his first response is no response at all. His second reason is this:

When you think about these differences between the morality of one people and another, do you think that the morality of one people is ever better or worse than that of another? Have any of the changes been improvements? If not, then of course there could never be any moral progress. Progress means not just changing, but changing for the better. If no set of moral ideas were truer or better than any other, there would be no sense in preferring civilized morality to savage morality, or Christian morality to Nazi morality. In fact, of course, we all do believe that some moralities are better than others.

Mere Christianity, Book 1, Chapter 2

He appears to be appealing to the idea that there are differences between human moral systems, and that we can determine which system is better and which is worse by comparing these systems to the archetypal system, the “Moral Law”. Oddly though, he states just a few sentences previously– as well as in Chapter 1 of the book–, that “though there are differences between the moral ideas of one time or country and those of another, the differences are not really very great — not nearly so great as most people imagine — and you can recognize the same lay running through them all…” In other words, his one argument appeals to the idea that there are no significant differences between human moral systems, while his other argument appeals to the idea that there are such differences. These statements cannot both be true, and this means that Lewis has not really addressed the objection at all. He has either repeated his original argument– which does not count as addressing objections made to that original argument– or he has negated that original argument, which rather obviously does not count as a defense of it.

But lets assume that moralities are different for a moment, because he makes yet another error. He writes:

The moment you say that one set of moral ideas can be better than another, you are, in fact, measuring them both by a standard, saying that one of them conforms to that standard more nearly than the other. But the standard that measures two things is something different from either. You are, in fact, comparing them both with some Real Morality, admitting that there is such a thing as a real Right, independent of what people thing, and that some people’s ideas get nearer to that real Right than others.

Mere Christianity, Book 1, Chapter 2

It is true that when claiming that one morality is better than another, one is appealing to a standard, but Lewis merely assumes that that appeal is to some platonic “Real Morality”. Surely, a Nazi, to use Lewis’ own example, would consider Nazi morality an improvement over ‘lesser’ moralities? How does this demonstrate that we appeal to a “Real Morality”? The standard of comparison need not be anything like a universal moral standard. It can be, and experience tells me often is, whatever morality happens to be accepted by the person doing the comparison. The leap Lewis makes here defies common sense. A Muslim will consider Islamic moral codes to be superior, while a Hindu will consider Hindu morality to be superior. The one’s leveling a judgement against the other in no way implies that either is nearer the “Real Right”. In fact, it is rather easy to show that Lewis’ formulation leads to a contradiction.

If, as Lewis claims, moral truth is measured by an appeal to some “Real” standard, then either the Hindu or the Muslim could level a judgement against the other, but they could not condemn each other mutually– a glance at the “Real” moral standard should prevent that, and demonstrate conclusively that the one is right and the other wrong. It takes no imagination to see that this is not the case, and mutual condemnation is very possible. Consequently, though, that condemnation cannot be based in the kind of appeal Lewis suggests.

Finally, I want to talk about math. Lewis introduces the topic of mathematics– multiplication tables in particular–, suggests that the moral law is like mathematics, then drops the subject, essentially. Rather than investigate the idea thoroughly, he introduces it then backs away. I think he would have been better served by asking how the multiplication tables were generated, and then comparing that to the “Moral Law”. He writes:

The people who ask that question are usually taking it for granted that if we have learned a thing from parents and teachers, then that thing must be merely a human invention. But, of course, that is not so. We all learned the multiplication table at school. A child who grew up alone on a desert island would not know it. But surely it does not follow that the multiplication table is simply a human convention, something human beings made up for themselves and might have made different if they had liked?

Mere Christianity, Book 1, Chapter 2

What Lewis does here is confuse ‘convention’ with ‘invention’. His choice of words makes that very clear. It is true that some things are human inventions and are also conventions. These things could have been different. We can decide to drive on the left side of the road, or on the right. Rules such as that are merely convention, but not all human invention is purely convention. Some inventions cannot have been otherwise, at least not significantly. Take, for example, an alternator. Alternators are human inventions, yet they are all very similar. Why? The invention– in this, of a machine that generates electricity– is constrained by the properties of electro-magnetism. An alternator cannot be made that does not conform to and exploit these properties. Boats worldwide are all fundamentally very similar. They are similar because they must all contend with the same circumstances– with the physics of floating on water, being propelled through water, and being controllable on the water. These are human inventions, but they could not have been significantly other than they are.

Likewise with mathematics, and likewise with the general social rules to which human civilizations abide. The multiplication tables are certainly a human invention. There are no tables floating in the ether. We created them, but we created them to conform to the world around us. That world is the constraint. We didn’t merely make them up. We created them to serve as a kind of short-hand addition, essentially. The rules of addition, in turn, were worked out to conform to the way that observable countable quantities change as items get moved around. If I count two cows in one field, two cows in another field, then recount them after the two pairs mingle in the same field I get a count of four. I always get a count of four. If I count five apples in my basket, then pick two more, I always get a count of seven. There is the birth of mathematics, and that is why math– and the multiplication tables– cannot have been different. At least, if math were different, it wouldn’t conform to the world we observe.

Human ethics are much the same, though there is more room for variation than in mathematics. A society where killing 19 out of twenty infants is the norm simply wouldn’t survive very long. The population would crash and either the baby-killer convention would change or everybody would die off. A society where cold-blooded random murder is lauded would also quickly self destruct. We are constrained by such things as reproduction, the need for shelter, food supplies, supplies of fresh water, and protection from predators and from other groups of humans. Solving these problems necessarily produces similar social structures, just as the physics of water necessarily produces similar ships worldwide, and just as the physics of electricity necessarily produces similar batteries and generators. A ship, or a battery, that strays too far from its physical constraints simply fails to function. The same is true of human culture. A culture that strays too far from good solutions to human survival problems, fails and ceases to exist.

Human culture and moral sentiment is not, therefore, merely convention, nor is does it point to some Platonic “Moral Law”. The “Moral Law” reflects what humans have collectively learned about surviving in a group. It is an abstraction of our successes and failures as social animals. Nor, note, is it instinct, which would imply a genetic basis to moral sentiment. While our moral codes are intended to address biological constraints and provide solutions to certain very physical problems, the codes themselves are learned behavior and not embedded in our genes but passed along by tradition.

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There are currently 26 responses to “C.S. Lewis, Instinct, and the Moral Law”

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  1. 1 On July 23rd, 2006, Aidan McGlynn said:

    ‘In fact, it is rather easy to show that Lewis’ formulation leads to a contradiction.’

    I don’t see how the passage of Lewis you quote commits him to this. I agree that the suggestion that in criticising a rival moral scheme we (perhaps unknowingly) appeal to some objective moral standard is pretty dreadful. But nowhere in the passage you quote can I see Lewis committing to either party in such a debate having knowledge of where on the scale each conception of the moral lies is supposed to lie, or which one is closer to the ‘real Right’. Put another way, all he says is that in criticising another moral scheme, we admit that there is some objective standard which we are using to measuring each; he doesn’t say anything about us being able to ‘glance’ at such a standard to resolve disagreement. (Lewis may commit to the stronger claim elsewhere for all I know, but it’s not in the passage you quote).

  2. 2 On July 23rd, 2006, themaiden said:

    Hello Aidan,

    I understand your point, but I still believe that my reading is correct. Here is why.

    Lewis states that by comparing two moralities we are in effect “admitting that there is such a thing as a real Right, independent of what people thing, and that some people’s ideas get nearer to that real Right than others.” He is pretty clearly talking about making comparisons between human moral systems and a ‘Real Morality’, and it seems clear that he intends that a conclusion can be drawn from the comparison. This is especially so given the larger context of Lewis’ writing. He, after all, trying to make the case that the moral law is of the same class as mathematics.

    If we are able to compare moralities at all based upon Lewis’ ‘Real Morality’, we have to be able to look at that ‘Real’ standard before making the comparison. And if we can look at that standard we can tell were any particular morality lies. That, really, is the essense of comparison. It makes little sense to think that neither party has “knowledge of where on the scale each conception of the moral lies is supposed to lie.” With no knowledge of where a moral system lies with regard to the standard, no comparison can be made at all.

    So, in essense, I disagree with your statement that “he doesn’t say anything about us being able to ‘glance’ at such a standard to resolve disagreement.” We have to be able to ‘glance’ at the standard for the process he describes to work at all.

  3. 3 On July 31st, 2006, paul said:

    Real Morality: Lewis’ statement makes it obvious it only applies to one person and at one specific time. If he had generalized he would be criticized.
    He is smart enough to know that most readers will automatically generalize for themselves, especially if the trigger word “Nazi” is used.

  4. 4 On July 31st, 2006, themaiden said:

    Perhaps you are right that this is what Lewis intended– to appeal to individuals–, but does this really solve the problem or just skirt it?

  5. 5 On August 14th, 2006, Don Jr. said:

    Handmaiden,

    Nice site. I realize this is a belated comment, but I just recently came across your webpage. In your critique of Lewis you say that he substitutes the moral law for the brain. I’m not sure what you mean there since Lewis believed in, and never denied, the existence of brains. If your point is simply that materialism is true and dualism is false then that is completely irrelevant here since it’s outside the scope of Lewis’s current discussion.

    You say that Lewis “assumes that we need some external, even metaphysical standard, in order to decide between two things.” Lewis didn’t think tying one’s shoe was a moral decision. The decisions with which he was concerned were moral decisions, not any and all decisions. I would think that would be clear from the subject matter of his discussion. And if that is not enough for one, any examples Lewis uses here involve moral decisions (not decisions about whether to hit or not during a blackjack game).

    You rightfully state, “We are not machines driven only by instinct.” Lewis would agree and nothing in the quote you cite (or any of his writings) suggests otherwise. In the quote, Lewis says, “If two instincts are in conflict, and there is nothing in a creature’s mind except those two instincts . . .” (emphasis mine). This is clearly a hypothetical, qualified statement. Your conclusion that Lewis considered humans as “machines driven only by instinct” is plainly unfounded. Here Lewis is considering a case where there are two strong instincts that standout—namely, where one is in a serious moral dilemma. Again, this should be clear from the example that follows. If one sees another in obvious danger one is likely to have two glaring, and opposing, instincts: help the other person or avoid the danger oneself. How does one choose between these two glaring and opposing instincts? This is the only point Lewis was getting at. To the person honestly considering Lewis’s remarks here I would think that should be relatively obvious.

    Also, you continually refer back to “the brain” as if it’s some organ distinct from ourselves that involuntarily does its job. As if it considers the variables, calculates, and then provides a solution—all this being a process during which we sit idly by having not ourselves to choose between two glaring and opposing options; rather, as you say, “our brains turn the trick quite nicely.” I guess once our brains are done calculating they inform us of the decision they’ve made.

    Lewis notes that there are differences between “human moral systems” and you think this contradicts something else he said. But you twist his words to do so. His other statement is “though there are differences . . . the differences are not really very great.” In this statement, which you quote, he admits that there are differences. There is absolutely no contradiction in what he says elsewhere. You say, “his one argument appeals to the idea that there are no significant differences between human moral systems.” This is correct. Then you say, “his other argument appeals to the idea that there are such differences.” But now you have twisted Lewis’s words. Lewis never claims that there are such differences—the “such” referring to “significant.” Lewis says that there are differences, not that there are significant differences. He never says that. (Note: There are differences that might result in significant consequences, such as in the Nazi case. But even the Nazi’s thought they ought to treat each other with respect; they simply thought that they were superior to others.)

    You are absolutely right, Handmaiden, that the standard of comparison need not be anything like a universal moral standard or “Real Morality.” The standard may certainly be whatever morality that person happens to accept. That would simply trivialize the person’s appeal. Lewis wouldn’t deny that. He was assuming that when people say things like “The Nazi’s were wrong” they weren’t meaning to make trivial statements equivalent to “I don’t like the Nazis” or “The Nazis don’t live up to my standard.” He assumed people meant that what the Nazis did was really wrong. If that is what they meant they would need a “Real Morality” to which they might appeal rather than a personal, subjective one. If, however, people are meaning to make trivial statements when they say “Child rape is wrong”—instead meaning “Child rape is wrong for me, but not for the child rapist if he deems it right”—then what you say is perfectly correct. If that is what you think people mean when they make such moral statements then, along with Lewis, I’d just have to disagree with you.

    Your “mutual condemnation” argument seems to be confused. Lewis nowhere argues that a Hindu can’t condemn a Muslin while a Muslin condemns the Hindu. That simply means that they disagree (while appealing to their conceived moral standards). That doesn’t however say that they are both right. A “Real” standard precludes that they can both be right not that they can’t disagree or condemn one another. If two students disagree in math class in doesn’t follow that 1 plus 1 doesn’t equal 2. A “Real” standard still exists.

    I think you do not at all do a good job to understand Lewis’s points throughout your critique. And this is especially the case with his remarks about mathematics and multiplication tables. You go into some lengthy—and irrelevant—discussion of the difference between invention and convention. (Those words, as Lewis was using them, can be used loosely. The drive-on-the-right-side-of-the-road rule can be called a societal invention or convention. One should look past such trivial issues and consider the point being made, as you failed to do.) Lewis’s point was that mathematics is neither a human invention nor convention. We did not agree to allow 1 plus 1 equal 2. Lewis was not at all arguing that multiplication tables are floating around in the ether because humans didn’t create them. That is an absolutely ridiculous construal of his argument. His point was that man didn’t create math. Man couldn’t have made 1 plus 1 equal whatever he decided. You say that if math were different it wouldn’t “conform to the world we observe.” A student that says 1 plus 1 equals 3 isn’t a non-conformist, he’s wrong. You also say that math “cannot have been different” (contradicting much of what you said just before) and that “human ethics are much the same.” This is exactly the point that Lewis was making! This is exactly the point against which you just tried to argue! The very next sentence you say, “A society where killing 19 out of twenty infants is the norm simply wouldn’t survive very long.” True. What is your point? Are you saying that this is now the way in which human ethics and mathematics are the same, that if we did math differently (though we couldn’t call it incorrectly) we would not survive and that is the reason we do mathematics the way we do? If so, then that’s just ridiculous. If you admit that mathematics can be done, not just differently, but incorrectly (according to the rules of math which, as you say, “cannot have been differently”) then you’re simply agreeing with Lewis again and destroying your case by then liking mathematics to ethics. For if there is some ultimate standard in mathematics (for it “cannot have been differently”) and “human ethics are much the same” then I’d like to see you argue your way out of the consequences of that.

    Before I end I must comment on an assertion which you make. You assert that what Lewis considers to be the moral law is actually “the appearance of cross-cultural similarities in moral sentiment.” By making that statement you are just either plain wrong or have misunderstood what Lewis views the moral law to be. The moral law, Lewis argues, is something that informs us, something that tells us, in moral decisions, what we ought or ought not to do. How can the “appearance” of anything inform us? What if one, as many are, are completely ignorant of these “cross-cultural similarities”? Do they lack any moral insight then? I have to refer to cross-cultural similarities to consider whether or not it is right or wrong to torture and innocent child? If you are meaning your phrase “the appearance of cross-cultural similarities in moral sentiment” to be taken in the exact same way that Lewis takes the moral law then you are just plain wrong, otherwise you have simply misunderstood Lewis.

  6. 6 On August 14th, 2006, themaiden said:

    Don,

    Hello. That is quite a lengthy comment. Let’s see what I can do with it.

    What I mean when I say that Lewis “substitutes the moral law for the brain” is that he substitutes some unverifiable– and I’d say unreliable– and highly questionable metaphysics to explain calculations that we all know the brain can make.

    As to those calculations, I know that Lewis was concerned with moral decisions and not other kinds of decisions, but divying things up like that is special pleading. A decision is a decision, whatever the subject matter. And hence the reference to blackjack. People accept metaphysical ‘yardsticks’ in connection with morality, but the idea sounds pretty silly when applied to other decisions. Unless you have some reason why ‘moral’ decisions are in fact a special case and not just special pleading, my point stands.

    You missed my point about Lewis and our being “machines driven only by instinct”. You are right that Lewis makes a highly qualified statement, but it is only within that qualification that his argument works; and that qualification divorces the argument from reality. He creates a straw man version of the human condition, in effect.

    Look, Lewis provides an argument for his Moral Law by claiming that all moralities are essentially the same. He then argues that some are better than others. You can’t really have it both ways, even considering the qualifier ’significant’. If there are no significant difference, there are no significant differences. Are you going to argue that one moral system is superior to another based upon insignificant differences? I’d hope not. That seems a bit silly.

    What Lewis assumed that people meant is pretty irrelevant, and so, in fact, is what people ‘mean’. Even if people really do believe, and hence mean, that the Nazis were really wrong, you are a long way from demonstrating that people are correct in that conviction.

    I don’t, in fact, mean to say that moral decisions are completely subjective, but there is an alternative to Lewis’ metaphysical yardstick.

    You are right that “If two students disagree in math class in doesn’t follow that 1 plus 1 doesn’t equal 2″ and that there is a standard; but what you are missing is that Lewis claims that we can and more importantly that we do appeal to that standard to make decisions. The math students can look at a book or a chart and get the answer. Lewis seems to think we can do the same with morality. If there is a standard that we can and do appeal to make moral decisions, we should all agree, all the time. Otherwise, we’d sometimes be appealing and sometimes not. We’d never know which is what and the whole process becomes messy and effectively useless.

    Humans did create math! What we didn’t create is the way that objects associate. Math is our way of describing that association. That is all it is– description.

    Now. Now. What I said was that math cannot have been different. If it were, it wouldn’t conform to the world we observe. We can make up any set of rules we want, but that doesn’t mean the resulting set of rules will be useful in any way. There are, for example, countless geometries that may or may not conform to anything in the real world. The set of rules we settled on and call ‘math’ is the useful set, and it is not at all the point Lewis makes.

    What is the point? A society that doesn’t last very long isn’t very functional is it? Its rules were bad. We pick the social rules that work, just like we picked the rules of mathematics that work.

    We don’t have to be individually aware of the roots of our moral idea. They are passed along generation to generation. It is called ‘culture’.

    Finally, I don’t claim that Lewis considers the moral law to be the appearance of anything. Did you notice that my sentence began with “I argue that…”?

  7. 7 On August 14th, 2006, Don Jr. said:

    Handmaiden,

    Thanks for the reply! I did not know if you would see it since it was so late.

    I guess we’re just going to have to disagree on the notion that Lewis substitutes the moral law for the brain. Maybe I’m just misunderstanding you, but I still don’t agree on that.

    If you’re suggesting (in the third paragraph of your last comment) that moral decisions don’t exist then we’re just going to have to disagree on that too. To be perfectly honest, I’m not sure how to argue for the existence of moral decisions. It just seems rather obvious to me. I could give you examples of what I think are moral decisions but since I’m sure you were aware of such examples when you seemed to deny (though maybe you didn’t) the existence of moral decisions, I doubt they’d be useful. If that is your stance then you’d have to hold either to some sort of ethical error theory or some sort of ethical non-cognitivism. I’m not sure which. (Those terms were taken from this page.) Although, later in your comment you say, “I don’t, in fact, mean to say that moral decisions are completely subjective”; so I’m not quite sure what your position is on moral decisions, that is, whether you believe they exist or not (which, ultimately, is a position on whether the realm of morality exists or not).

    I don’t at all agree that the qualification in one of Lewis’s images makes it irrelevant. That is the way in which many philosophical arguments are presented more clearly to the mind: a specific, qualified example is given. How is one to choose between two glaring and opposing instincts? That is the question Lewis’s image is meant to pose. One may attempt to answer the question differently from the way Lewis answers it, that is, without appealing to a moral law; but the question still needs to be answered. It’s not irrelevant.

    You say, “Lewis provides an argument for his Moral Law by claiming that all moralities are essentially the same.” One may state part of Lewis’s case in this fashion; it seems fair to me. But I think it is more accurate to say that what Lewis does is to argue that all human beings act as if there is a common morality that ought to be shared by others. The Puritans act as if stealing is wrong. The Nazi’s, though they mistakenly thought themselves superior, would probably object to one Nazi stealing from another. The same is true with Hindus, and so on. This is also the case, not just with stealing, but also with lying, cheating, murder, and all “decent behavior,” as I think Lewis calls it. Hence, Lewis suggests that all societies, no matter how civil or how barbaric, agree to some tacit code of “decent behavior.” I think you would agree with this, but that you would just explain the existence of these, as you call them, “cross-cultural similarities” differently that Lewis. Lewis points to them as proof of a Moral Law common to all. You would disagree. But you would both, I think, agree on the commonality of the “decent behavior.”

    Lewis’s suggestion of a commonality of decent behavior (as explained in the previous paragraph) no way, as far as I can tell, takes from his suggestion that some societies are better, morally, than others. Just as a math student can admit that another did many things correct in his proof, many things that he agrees with, yet still hold that the other’s answer is incorrect. (That’s not a perfect analogy, but hopefully you get the point.) I can agree that the Nazi’s treated each other well while still despising their treatment of others. I can even conclude that a society who treats everyone equally is better. I don’t see how that’s attempting to “have it both ways.”

    It never was my point to prove that when people say the Nazi’s were wrong that they were correct in that conviction. It was my point to show what Lewis meant, or what he was assuming others meant, and how what he said wasn’t subject to your criticism.

    Whether moral dilemmas are “messy” or not is irrelevant. Lewis never denied the existence of moral dilemmas, nor did he deny that there might be more than one “right answer” or that an answer might be unclear. (Of course this all presupposes the existence or moral decisions.) Maybe one ought to call the police in a certain situation rather than trying to help oneself. Sometimes the answer is not clear. Sometimes the answer might be broad. Maybe “Help” is simply the right answer in some cases and it might be able to work itself out differently. Possibly, the right answer to the moral question is to help, and once one has passed that stage the rational or practical question is how to help. Regardless, Lewis never denied the dilemma in moral dilemma. Lewis simply argued for a moral law, a moral law which informs us that we ought to do what is right. He never denied that that “what is right” might not be clear.

    I don’t at all agree that humans created math. I can’t really comment, or it does no good for me to comment, on anything you say that derives from that assumption since I disagree with the assumption. Moreover, I don’t think humans decided that 5 times 5 should equal 25 because it was useful.

    Finally, you misunderstood my last paragraph. I can see how that could happen since it was worded ambiguously. To clarify, I was arguing against what you were asserting, not against what you were claiming Lewis was asserting. I understood that that statement (”the appearance of . . .”) was your statement, not Lewis’s, and not what you claimed to be Lewis’s. Lewis claims there to be a moral law. You claim that there is no moral law and that Lewis is confusing his idea of a moral law with (what is really) “the appearance of cross-cultural similarities in moral sentiment.” I was arguing against the idea, your idea, that “the appearance of cross-cultural similarities in moral sentiment” could be mistaken as a moral law.

  8. 8 On August 14th, 2006, themaiden said:

    Don,

    In case you happen to drop by, I do want to continue this discussion but I have family in the hospital and I’ve just gotten back from a visit. And it is almost 11pm. Sorry about the delay and check in tomorrow.

  9. 9 On August 15th, 2006, Don Jr. said:

    Handmaiden,

    You do not have to apologize for having family in the hospital. I am sorry to hear that. I wish them well. Thank you for the kindness though and for informing me. (If missing one day is a delay then I wonder what my 2-week late post was?) I would very much enjoy continuing our discussion. Do not rush at all though.

  10. 10 On August 15th, 2006, Victor Reppert said:

    I’m wondering if you have the structure of Lewis’s argument right. In Lewis’s writings he seems to be very concerned about defending the objectivity of moral values, in, for example, The Abolition of Man and The Poison of Subjectivism. Offering an anti-naturalist or theistic explanation for this fact is something that appears only in Mere Christianity. So, for example, C. Stephen Evans provides a formalization of Lewis’s argument that goes like this.

    1) Probably, unless there is a God, there cannot be objectively binding moral obligations.
    2) There are objectively binding moral obligations.
    3) Therefore, (Probably) God exists.

    In this post I delineate three arguments for moral objectivity in Lewis: the argument from implied practice, the argument from underlying moral consensus, and the argument from reformers.

    http://dangerousidea.blogspot.com/2006/08/lewiss-three-arguments-for-moral.html

    In other words, Lewis’s arguments attempt to establish the existence of moral facts or truths, establishing premise 2 of the above argument. He then argues that the existence of moral facts or truths is best explained by theism and not be naturalism. As I read him, Lewis’s overall idea is this: if there are objective moral truths, what sorts of facts could these truths follow from? If the physical is all there is, then it seems that moral truths will not follow from truths of this type. However if there is a God, then these moral facts can be explained. Therefore, the existence of objective moral values gives us a reason to believe that God does exist.

    Your argument from social necessity is an interesting one. While some deviant codes would destroy society, I would be inclined to argue that the moral consensus Lewis is referring to is too rich and complex to be absolutely necessary for cultural survival, and that a society with a simple pecking order would survive equally well. A sense of justice for weak and underprivileged members of society, for example, would seem on the face of things to be, if anything, a Darwinian liability.

    If this is the explanation for our moral consciousness, I would also have to ask whether there is an overriding reason for me to always act morally. Morality exists for the survival of a society, but perhaps in order for me to survive individually I might do something that keeps me flourishing but undermines my society as a whole. If this is why these moral rules exist, why should I as an indivual care (unless I happen to have the emotional disposition to care).

  11. 11 On August 15th, 2006, themaiden said:

    Don,

    I haven’t said that moral decisions don’t exist. I could name plenty of such decisions. I could also name business decisions, personal decisions, pragmatic decisions, political decisions etc. What I do claim though is that moral decisions are not sufficiently different from other kinds of decisions to deserve special treatment as you implied in your initial post when you argued that Lewis’ position only applies to moral decisions and not to decisions such as tying one’s shoe. Lewis’ metaphysical reference-point makes little sense when applied to other decision making processes so, of course, he and anyone defending him would want to restrict the discussion to morality. To make that work, though, moral decisions have to be significantly different than other types of decisions or treating them as if they are different is just special pleading. As I’ve said, I do not think moral decisions are a distinct class of decision. And please note that that is very different from saying that they don’t exist.

    Of course a person can use very restricted examples to make a point. It is possible to bootstrap off of such examples to form an argument, but 1) the sum total, the final incarnation of the argument, has to be tied to something real or it is meaningless, irrelevant. And 2), you cannot use the restrictions to create a straw man or the example, the test case, can be dismissed as being the fallacy that it is. Lewis, as far as I can tell never ties this restricted case into the real world, and does use restrictions that effectively construct a ‘person’ that doesn’t exist. Imagine what would happen if you gathered thousands of black men, then started limiting the group. You take away the old men. You take away the educated ones. You take away the smart ones. You take away the sickly ones. You take away the peaceful ones and so on until you are left with the young, violent, strong and stupid ones. Do you then proceed to talk about all black men? I hope not. Lewis does the same thing with all humanity. He limits to the point of absurdity and treats the result as if it were meaningful.

    “But you would both, I think, agree on the commonality of the ‘decent behavior.’” Yes, I would; and do. But you are still missing the point that Lewis claims we have a reference to which we can and do appeal when making moral decisions. The students studying math have each have the same textbook, or share one. That being the case, if a student makes an error the other simply points out the appropriate place in the textbook. The student formerly in error, is no longer in error. Any differences should very quickly work themselves out thereby, and moral systems should converge sharply– and this is the basis of Lewis’ initial argument for the existence of the Moral Law. At this point, the only thing available to Lewis in the way of moral flexibility is minor errors. A student made a mistake and read the text wrong or left out a minus sign. He can’t account for there being billions of people set against billions of others. These folks should be able to look up the answer in the textbook and solve things. The Nazis could look up the question “Are we superior?” and get the correct answer– the same answer as everyone else. And, presumably, when making that decision, the Nazis did look up the answer– this looking-up process being how we come to moral decisions, after all. In other words, he is appealing to differences that should not be there if his previous statements are correct. That is how he is trying to have it both ways. That is how he contradicts himself.

    I didn’t claim that the moral dilemmas are messy. I said that the process Lewis suggests would be messy and useless if 1)there is a standard and 2) that standard is sufficiently hard to read that large swathes of humanity get it wrong. I probably shouldn’t have said anything because it is something of a tangent.

    My statement about math isn’t really an assumption. It is more of a conclusion, but I didn’t make the case in my comment. I did make a truncated version of the case in my original post though.

    I don’t think “that ‘the appearance of cross-cultural similarities in moral sentiment’ could be mistaken as a moral law.” I think that moralities appear roughly similar cross-culturally because the moral rules that we humans have adopted are the rules that allow us, and our societies, to survive. Rules that get us killed– without somehow balancing the equation, of course– get thrown away. Rules that allow us to survive get kept. It is learned behavior passed along mostly through culture. It is this basic socio-economic and biological foundation that I think Lewis mistakes for the “Moral Law”.

  12. 12 On August 16th, 2006, Don Jr. said:

    Handmaiden,

    I’m a bit confused about your position on morality and moral decision. For the record, I never suggested that moral decisions deserve “special treatment.” I do think though, contrary to you, that, say, whether or not one ought to harm an innocent person is a decision “sufficiently different” (your words) from whether or not one ought to tie one’s shoe. I guess, again, we’re just going to have to differ on that. (I don’t mean to stack the deck here either. I would say that any “minor” moral dilemma is sufficiently different from any “major” other sort of dilemma, be it practical, financial, political, or what have you. However, I think one would have a hard time conceiving of any “major” other sort of dilemma that doesn’t actually involve a moral one.)

    Getting back on subject, I wonder if you think such things as morally right and morally wrong have meaning. That is to say, can an action be right or wrong, morally speaking? If so, then that was my only point. If a child rapist rapes an 8-year-old girl is that wrong? Is it actually, really wrong? Is it like math where if one says 2 plus 2 equals 5 then one is actually, really wrong? Or is it like “pragmatic decisions” where if one decides to trim the hedges a little more, though it might be an excellent decision, one isn’t actually, really right in doing so (nor would one be actually, really wrong in not doing so)? Or is it like “personal decisions” where if one chooses to where blue instead of black, though the decision might make sense, one isn’t actually, really right in doing so (nor would one be actually, really wrong in not doing so)? Right and wrong, real right and wrong, as far as I can tell, only apply to logical (which includes mathematical) and moral decisions. For me, that is “sufficiently different” enough. Maybe you disagree that moral decisions can be actually, really right or wrong. Or maybe you think that other decisions (those not logical or moral) can be actually, really right or wrong. If either is the case, could you explain?

    I don’t think your black men analogy is at all accurate. You didn’t provide any evidence that Lewis did anything equivalent to it either. (Of course, if the analogy were accurate you wouldn’t need any evidence; it would simply be obvious and I would concur. But your analogy is not, to my mind, accurate at all.) In order to show me wrong you would need to do provide some sort of explanation supporting your analogy. However, you just gave an example that would prove your point and then simply asserted, “Lewis does the same thing with humanity.” Then you add, “He limits to the point of absurdity and treats the result as if it were meaningful,” yet you don’t explain how he “limits to the point of absurdity.” You simply assert that he does. As I said before, in Lewis’s example the purpose was to pose the question, “How is one to choose between two glaring and opposing instincts?” That, I would think, should be relatively obvious to any reader. How does one make a choice in moral dilemmas? What is it that informs the person in such instances? That is what Lewis was getting at. All people are, at one point or another, in moral dilemmas. How is that limiting to the point of absurdity? Since you didn’t explain how what Lewis says is analogous to the example you give, but rather simply asserted that it was, I feel no need to delve further into this issue (unless, obviously, you attempt to prove what you have simply asserted).

    Of course Lewis “claims we have a reference to which we can and do appeal when making moral decision.” What is odd about that? Are you suggesting that people just arbitrarily make moral decisions? If a decision, any decision, is made its either arbitrary or with an appeal to some reference frame. If an appeal is made to some “reference frame,” that reference frame can be either the person’s own subjective preferences (”I’d rather wear blue than green because I think it looks better”) or it can be something outside the person, something objective (”I opt not to rape anybody because rape is actually wrong”).

    Your math textbook example is confused since even if there where no textbooks the student who says 1 plus 1 equals 15 would still be wrong. Textbooks have absolutely nothing to do with the laws of logic and mathematics. If a textbook prints an incorrect answer, it doesn’t make the erring student right. Textbook or not, logical laws exist. Lewis is suggesting that the same is true with morality.

    In your final paragraph you say, “I think that moralities appear roughly similar cross-culturally because the moral rules that we humans have adopted are the rules that allow us, and our societies, to survive.” Lewis would say that of course following the moral law helps us to survive. In fact he says as much—if not explicitly then implicitly—in the chapter “Social Morality” of his Mere Christianity, as well as other places, I’m sure, in that book. But he would disagree that we have “adopted” moral rules, that we keep certain rules and throw away others. This suggests that moral rules aren’t actually binding. It’s all one big experiment. Given your assumption, who knows (certainly you can’t say) whether child rape will be wrong a thousand years from know? We’ve simply “adopted” the idea that it is, currently, because it has helped us survive. No offense, but that’s absurd. Moreover, you can only keep or throw away rules that you’ve created. No one can throw away “1 plus 1 equals 2.” Man didn’t create it. No one created it. Likewise, “Child rape is wrong” can’t be thrown away. Any notion of morality (such as the one you espoused) that allows as much, that allows even the possibility of such as thing, ought to be considered seriously flawed.

  13. 13 On August 16th, 2006, Don Jr. said:

    To add to a portion of my last post, I note that it doesn’t even align with history to suggest that humans adopt moral rules because they help them survive. Specifically, you say that “the moral rules that we humans have adopted are the rules that allow us, and our societies, to survive.” This, taken as it is, does no good as a criticism against Lewis since he would agree, nor does it hold as an objection to the existence of a moral law since the moral law may very well (in fact it is so thought by all who hold to it) be conducive to harmony amongst mankind (the Christian would even say amongst all of creation) and thus survival. Thus it is ineffective as a criticism in both of these areas. It is only useful—though wrong, I would say—if it is construed as meaning that humans adopt moral rules because they deem them conducive to (human?) survival. Men and women, whatever the race, did not object to the Holocaust, or any instance of genocide, because they felt it was harmful to their own survival (though it was to some). They objected because they knew it was wrong. To suggest otherwise is both historically inaccurate and morally confused. Similarly, men don’t object to child rape because they fear non-existence. They object because any man with moral awareness ought to be able to see that it is wrong. Thus, no matter how that particular statement of yours (see second sentence of this comment) is construed it is ineffective as a criticism against Lewis because, depending on how it is construed, it is either (1) consistent with Lewis’s position or (2) both historically inaccurate and morally confused.

  14. 14 On August 16th, 2006, themaiden said:

    Don,

    I have to disagree. In fact you do suggest that moral decisions deserve special treatment. In your first comment you defended Lewis by claiming that “he was concerned were moral decisions, not any and all decisions” and hence my example of the blackjack game is invalid. For this to work, for this criticism to hold, you have got to assume that moral decisions are a special case, and in fact, in your second sentence of your most recent comment– immediately after denying that moral decisions deserve special treatment– you argue that they are a special case. If it is correct that moral decisions are a special case, then treating such decisions as special cases is perfectly valid. I don’t think they are.

    Its true that some decisions have greater consequences than others but the process of making those decisions is the same. There is a collections of premises. There is cognitive manipulation (logical or not) of those premises. Then there is a conclusion. Lewis suggests that, in the case of morals, we need an ‘extra’. We need a kind of platonic reference to make the decision, but unless you can say why moral decisions are different– and thus need this “extra”– then you are special pleading, and it isn’t valid.

    You seem to be asking me if I believe in a kind of platonic Form of Moral Good and Evil. I do not. I don’t think there is a metaphysical– supernatural– standard of right and wrong. I do think there is a physical standard and in that sense “right” is “really, really right” in exactly the same way that 1+1=2 is “really, really right”, or in exactly the same way that laws of physics are “really, really right”. While it is possible to ignore laws of physics, catastrophic things happen more or less quickly (and that is the motivation for not ignoring them) depending upon what you are doing and which law you ignore.

    As for the analogy, Lewis takes humanity. He then removes education, culture, experience, cognition, biology and the like until he is left with two equal but opposite instincts bumping into one another and a little tiny fragment of consciousness that doesn’t seem capable of doing anything more than look up the answer in a book. In other words, he removes virtually everything that makes us human, then treats the resulting automaton as if it were representative. He removes most of the processes that humans employ when making decisions, as enumerated above– education, etc. The result is a kind of comical stand-in, as straw figure.

    By the way– “yet you don’t explain how he ‘limits to the point of absurdity.’ You simply assert that he does.”– I assumed that you would tie my statements into other statements that I have made– the first of those statements being paragraph seven of my original post, where I stated very much what I stated in the preceding paragraph.

    What is odd about the claim that “we have a reference to which we can and do appeal when making moral decisions” is that Lewis’ reference is a kind of metaphysical entity and it is absolutely shared. Furthermore, reference to that entity is required for moral decision-making. That means that anyone can consult the reference, anyone making a moral decision has to consult the reference, and, given that the reference is absolutely shared, anyone consulting it must come to the same ‘correct’ answer. That is the point of my use of the textbook example. It really has nothing to do with whether the answer in the textbook is right or wrong. The point is that if there is such a reference that we have to consult, we should never disagree– at least not a large scale and for very long. Yet, billions of people ‘consult’ Lewis’ reference and do disagree to a greater degree than should be expected if all the answers are written down and available.

    It is not absurd to suggest that we’ve adopted our behaviors, and our beliefs about our behaviors. Human culture– behaviors and associated ideas and beliefs– are all about adaptation to circumstances. There is an enormous volume of anthropological material– particularly in the subfield of cultural ecology– that contradicts your assertion. This sounds relativistic, but it is no more relativistic that is obeying the laws of physics. If I decide that it is OK to walk into a McDonalds and shoot everyone, I will end up dead– just as if I’d decided to ignore gravity and jump off of a building. There are constraints, they just aren’t metaphysical.

    Sure you can throw away 1+1=2. It’s easy. There are cultures with no such concept at all, but they don’t do math. What you can’t do is change how objects associate. If you count two cows in a field and two cows in another field, wait until the two herds mingle, and count again you will count four. We can’t change that, but that isn’t math. It is counting. Counting is possible without math. Math is a generalization from observations such as that one. And yes, we made it up. We created it by observation, rule making, and then comparing the results of calculations according to our rule-set with what we actually observe.

    I’m going to take another tact with throwing away “Child rape is wrong”. By following Lewis, you end up in the uncomfortable position of damning pretty much the whole of humanity. Chances are that most of your ancestors– most of all of our ancestors– past two or three generations ago, were pedophiles by today’s standards. What? People married young and had children young. The definition of ‘child’ itself was very different. Today, marrying a thirteen year old girl will get you arrested and tried for rape. Now, what does this say about Lewis’ moral scheme? It says that all of those people, generation upon generation, took a look at the reference and got it wrong. Likewise, chances are that many of our male ancestors beat their wives and children. They looked at the standard and got that wrong too? Really, that is kind-of absurd. You even end up damning such ‘icons’ of morality as the Biblical patriarchs, who kidnapped and enslaved virgins for use as sex toys and who married multiple women at the same time. Were they reading the same moral reference as we do today? It is hard to see how they could have been, but if they weren’t, what kind of standard is the Moral Law.
    From another point of view, the reference has given different answers to different generations. That seems rather a lot like it isn’t much of a metaphysical absolute at all, but that we humans have been learning as we go.

  15. 15 On August 16th, 2006, themaiden said:

    Don,

    Nothing I have said is out of alignment with history, and it is very much in line with sociobiology and anthropology. I don’t know how to prove that other than by refering you to those field. I recommend, in particular, Marvin Harris.

    It is also correct that people, in general, did not react to the Holocaust out of a sense of self-preservation. They reacted out of a sense of right and wrong. I have no issue with this. It is the source of that sense of right and wrong that is at issue. Lewis claims the source is a kind of metaphysical entity. I claim the source is human experience. Note, it is not the experience of one individual or of one generation; but the experience of countless people over thousands of generations. That experience is crystalized into myth, legend, religion, morality, etc. and is passed down generation to generation by culture. Sure, we have a sense of right and wrong. It is learned (mostly), just like Boyle’s Law.

  16. 16 On August 16th, 2006, themaiden said:

    Victor,

    Hello.

    I am aware that Lewis’ ultimate goal was a proof of God very much as you outline, quoting or paraphrasing C. Stephen Evans and that I am essentially addressing premise 2 of that argument.

    We do see a very simple pecking order type social structure in very simple societies like that of the non-human primates and, even, in the structures of other social animal groups. But as elements of society become more complicated, so does the social structure. For example, stone tools immediately mean certain changes. Skill in making the tools becomes a factor as does the availability of workable stone. With both of these comes trade, which may involve long journeys and possibly the learning of foreign languages and traditions. Population pressures force more complicated interactions. Farming forces more complicated interactions. So, no, I don’t think a pecking order structure would work well for anything approaching human societies.

    It is wrong to consider justice a Darwinian liability. Humans survive in groups, and survive very poorly outside of groups. Some sense of, or system of, justice helps to keep those groups together and hence everyone’s chances go up.

    That goes a long way towards responding to you final comment. You as an individual may not feel obligated to help anyone, but your neighbors will sure feel that you need to contribute. They will consequently do all in their power to assure that you contribute whether you want to or not. This could mean, for example, not sharing a kill with you because you were stingy with your last kill. You go hungry a little bit and thus are motivated, at least a little, to share next time. The serious troublemakers just get kicked out of the group or killed. Over time people make up stories about this or that thief, or this or that brave warrior, and the ideas become engrained in the minds of those hearing the stories.

    The process isn’t perfect, of course, and sometimes things go terribly wrong, but those societies self destruct or get destroyed by surrounding cultures, as happened with Nazi Germany. Subsequent generations take the lessons and move on, at least until those lessons are forgotten or watered down by the years. Then something goes wrong and the lessons have to be relearned. I do think, though, that overall we make a slow and painful kind of progress.

  17. 17 On August 16th, 2006, Don Jr. said:

    Handmaiden,

    Thanks for continuing the discussion. I don’t see any progress being made here (either way), but I’ll continue for a little while longer.

    I apologize for instigating a quibble over semantics. I, sloppily, made a distinct—an irrelevant distinction—between something receiving “special treatment” and something being “sufficiently different.” All of what I said about that, and any response to it, is irrelevant.

    You addressed the part of my response that matters when you talked about whether moral decisions can be “really, really right.” You seemed to confuse, though, what I was asking. I asked if raping an 8-year-old child was “actually, really wrong.” By that I meant: Is child rape objectively wrong, wrong whether the child rapist or anybody else believes it not to be wrong? I’m not sure where you got that I was suggesting some distinction between a “platonic Form” and a physical standard. I didn’t think I made or suggested any such distinction (at least I didn’t intend to). I suggested, or intended to suggest, a simple question: When the statement “Child rape is morally wrong” (or, as another example, “What the Nazis did was morally wrong”) is made, does it represent objective truth or is it the mere subjective proclamation of the speaker? That is what I would like an answer to. (By the by, I have no idea what it means to say that there is some physical standard by which something might be objectively right. You didn’t thoroughly explain that.)

    As for the analogy, Lewis mentions nothing of the things which you say that he removes. He simply asks, as I’ve said numerous times now, how a person is to make a decision in a moral dilemma. I don’t see what’s difficult about that.

    Apparently you misunderstand the concept of a moral law because if Lewis (or anybody) understood it as being such that “anyone consulting it must come to the same ‘correct’ answer” it would simply be proved wrong, not by the numerous differences in moral issues (such as abortion), but by one, single moral disagreement. The second some one person said, “I disagree” concerning any moral issue that conception of a moral law would be disproved. Neither Lewis nor anybody who holds to the existence of a moral law is that stupid. About this, I will simply note that I have touched on it previously. (If I cared to I might add, “I assumed that you would tie my statements into other statements that I have made.” But I won’t). I will also note that if you were to be fair to Lewis, all others who hold to the existence of a moral law, and yourself you would look into the matter more since, though we believers in a moral law might be mistaken, I doubt we’re that moronic to hold to such a conception of the moral law as you here suggest. (Hint: Does a wrong answer in math class disprove the existence of logical laws?)

    You say, “Sure you can throw away 1+1=2.” So 1 plus 1 may or may not equal 2, depending, I guess, on one’s culture? (I hope to goodness that’s a rhetorical question.) You obviously missed my point. You honestly think that when I said we can’t throw away the fact that 1 plus 1 equals 2, I meant that all cultures do math? I’m sorry but that’s just horribly bad interpretation. I meant that logical laws exist, not that ignorant people don’t.

    In regards to your child-definition/ancestral argument, of course there are cultural differences that matter. A moral law wouldn’t preclude the existence of cultures. Flipping someone off in America is an insult. It might be a greeting in Kalamazoo. So what? That doesn’t disprove the existence of a moral law. I’ve seen enough from you to know you’re intellectually sharp. If honest, you ought to be able to see that this is not an argument against the moral law.

    Lewis dealt with your mention that morality is learned. Math is learned too. That doesn’t mean 1 plus 1 could have been 3. (Of course you think that man created math so what I just said is probably irrelevant to you.) Another example: The rules of logic are learned; there are textbooks on the subject. That doesn’t mean logical laws don’t exist.

    I am not familiar with Harris’s work, but, regardless, when people say child rape is wrong they tend to mean child rape is objectively wrong, not that child rape is bad for human survival. If you mean to suggest the latter then when you use terms such as “morally right” or “morally wrong” you’re merely using them as placeholders for “advantageous to human survival” or “disadvantageous to human survival.” In which case, “morally right” and “morally wrong” become superfluous and thus the whole enterprise of morality fades away. Actions aren’t moral or immoral then; they’re simply advantageous to society or not. Child rape isn’t wrong; it’s just either bad for society or presently taboo. (The obvious question that follows is: Why ought we solely care about what’s advantageous to society? How does that in some way determine what we ought or ought not do? Killing all sick people might be advantageous to society.)

  18. 18 On August 17th, 2006, themaiden said:

    Don,

    Its nice that you keep coming back.

    What is a “physical standard”? Well, if someone tells me there is a bear in the back yard, then I’ll got to the window and look. That is a physical standard. Moral calculations are more complicated– say, along the lines of relativity– but still physical.

    I mention platonic Forms because 1) Lewis’ “Moral Law” is most definitely platonic, in nature if not in origin, 2) most people who insist that ideas have some independent– that is, objective– reality, suffer:) from some form of Platonism, and 3) much of what you’ve said suggests a tendency towards item #2 of this list– for example, what I can gather of your views toward mathematics indicates a kind of Platonism You seems very clearly to believe that “Math” has a kind of independent reality.

    I think I’ve answered your question as clearly as I can, but I’ll try again. Do I think there is a standard of morality existing independently somewhere in the metaphysical or supernatural realm– Plato would call it the realm of ideas? No. Is morality, then, as simple as making up whatever we happen to fell like? Also no, because many of the answers (to moral questions) are self-destructive. A society could conclude, for example, that women are evil and so we’ll kill them all at birth. Obviously, that society won’t survive past one generation, if that long. Bad rules thus get weeded out. So, no, we don’t have an indisputable moral standard floating in the ether, as Lewis implies and as any hard objective moral standard theory must imply. We do have standards. We’ve made them up, or discovered them if you prefer, by making mistakes and noting what works and what doesn’t.

    Lewis does not simply ask how a person makes a decision in a moral dilemma, and yes, you’ve stated that repeatedly. Unfortunately, Lewis quite clearly states “there is nothing in a creature’s mind except those two instincts“. Nothing but two instincts? When have you ever had nothing but two instincts in your mind? I’ll wager a guess, “Never”. It doesn’t happen. This is not a valid representation of any human condition, excepting perhaps someone who is crippled by severe insanity. Even the idea that instincts play such a large role distorts the portrayal. Humans, and in fact primates in general, possess very very few instincts. The vast majority of human behaviors are learned. Lewis has built a straw man.

    If, furthermore, you are correct that Lewis only meant “a person in a moral dilemma”, his case falls apart even more rapidly. To solve the problem, I only have to say “Humans can think”. We’ll think about it come to a conclusion, right or wrong, and the dilemma is over. There is no reason to postulate some reference– and postulating that reference is exactly what he is trying to do. He’s got to have the hard case for the argument to have even a chance at working, and the hard case is a straw man and is invalid. The soft case, as you claim he means, is easily answered.

    You are quite right that “one, single moral disagreement” throws a wrench into the whole thing. That is precisely the problem I have been trying to illustrate. There are a couple of options.

    Lewis claims that there is a moral standard. He also claims that we must appeal to it to make a moral decision. This latter is a key element in his argument. I don’t think we disagree so far. Here are the options:

    1)We appeal to the standard and get the same answers, all the time.

    2)We appeal to the standard and get different answers. Well, in this latter case, you don’t really have a hard objective standard. What you have is, possibly, subjective opinions masquerading as an objective standard, or a standard so fuzzy that it may as well be objective opinion. Determining which it is will prove an impossible task, but lets assume the latter. Then, the standard is no more ’standard’ than the writing of Nostradamus or the dreams of Edgar Casey. Whomever ‘reads’ the standard finds, to his or her happy surprise, that it means whatever he or she had hoped it would mean.

    So you have either a hard objectivism, which is, as you note, easily countered; or a practical subjectivism, which I don’t think you want. Plato suffers from the same problems, by the way, so I guess you are in good company.

    Now, appealing to a collective human moral sense– the “we all share very similar moral standards” idea– in order to infer a moral standard, makes sense assuming option #1, but does it make sense assuming option #2? I think not. If you are going to infer option #2, the best you can do is conclude that there might be a standard, and that does little good.

    You may mean “logical laws exist” but what you consistently claim is that “math exists”. I’d take it a step further back though. Really, I have to take it a step back for it to make sense. Logical ‘laws’ are themselves a descriptive language ultimately derived from our observation of the way things associate– that is, ultimately derived from the ways in which atoms and molecules (and whatever else) bounce around, stick together, break apart, and whatever else they do that we may or may not know about. We’ve watched how things behave and we’ve written rules to describe it. That set of rules is different from that which they describe. The ‘rules’, the ‘laws’ could be wrong, yet close enough that we don’t notice for centuries. In fact, modern cosmology suggests that our ‘Laws’ don work under certain peculiar situations and quantum physicists have known for a very long time that subatomic particles don’t obey “Laws” like that of cause and effect. Physicists will also tell you that there are also other possible values for physical ‘constants’ and that there doesn’t seem to be any reason why we have the set we do. So, yes, physical laws could very well have been different, and had they been different we’d have invented a different system of Math or Logic to describe them.

    It is horribly, horribly wrong to equate whatever true physical laws there are, or perhaps are not, with the ‘Laws’ we’ve written to describe them, and that is what you have been very consistently doing by equating math– our invention– with “how things associate”– the true ‘physical laws’ of which we likely only know a part.

    Cultural variations are most definitely a problem for theories of objective moral standards. You can of course have cultural variations like using different hand signals to convey the same meaning, but that isn’t a moral issue is it? That is nothing more than convention, like ‘house’ vs. ‘chez’. It doesn’t at all address how ‘morals’, like attitudes toward sex with what we’d now call minors, can shift over time. Where was the moral law for most of human history? That is not at all a flippant objection. The “Law” seems to be pretty unreliable.

    “When you use terms such as ‘morally right’ or ‘morally wrong’ you’re merely using them as placeholders for ‘advantageous to human survival’ or ‘disadvantageous to human survival.’” Somewhat, yes. Actually it would be more accurate to say that I think that this substitution is what everyone is doing when they use those terms, whether they believe themselves to be doing so or not. Remember, I find the source of morality in human experience, nonetheless, it is a standard of behavior. People have since mythologized those ideas into something they are not– objects existing independently in the in some supernatural, or otherwise non-material realm.

    I’m not quite sure why what people “tend to mean” seems so important to you. People say many things, and “tend to mean” them, that are simply wrong.

  19. 19 On August 17th, 2006, Don Jr. said:

    Handmaiden,

    You changed my question again. I even put it in italics in my last post to emphasize it, and I followed it with “That is what I would like an answer to.” There is absolutely no mention or suggestion of Platonism or of a metaphysical or supernatural realm in that question. It’s a straightforward question that anyone who can comprehend the meaning of the words in the question can understand. A high school student completely ignorant of Platonism or the idea of a “metaphysical or supernatural realm” or Plato’s “realm of ideas” could answer the question. Again I ask: When the statement “Child rape is wrong” is made does it represent objective truth or is it the mere subjective proclamation of the speaker? Contrary to what you claim, you haven’t and didn’t answer this question “as clearly as [you] can.” As clearly as you can would be either “The statement ‘Child rape is wrong’ represents objective truth” or “The statement ‘Child rape is wrong’ is the mere subjective proclamation of the speaker.”

    A bear is a physical object. I understand that. I didn’t say I’m confused about physical objects. I said, “I have no idea what it means to say there is some physical standard by which something might be objectively right [morally speaking].” In response to that all you said was that it was “complicated.”

    What?! Lewis doesn’t state that there is nothing in a creature’s mind except those two instincts. He paints an illustration by prefacing that “statement” with the hypothetical if, which you completely ignore, thus distorting his words. In short, he says if a man is in a moral dilemma, and then he proceeds. It’s a discussion about moral dilemmas, moral decisions. Nothing more, nothing less. What in the world is so unclear about that? It’s not an anthropological statement. I don’t see how anybody could honestly get that out of Lewis’s illustration. It’s like you’re on a mission to not understand what Lewis was saying. You think that Lewis viewed man as a walking, breathing bag of two instincts? If that were true, then that itself—being absurdly stupid—would discredit anything Lewis ever said.

    You drastically misunderstand the point of Lewis’s “moral dilemma” discussion. You seriously believe he was dumb enough to pose an issue that could be solved with “Humans can think”? The fact that you even think that indicates that you give Lewis no credit whatsoever as an intellectual, scratch that, as an educated man. Lewis knew humans can think. I’ve failed miserably every time I’ve attempted to clarify an issue here, so I won’t try again. If you are honestly just misunderstanding, then I’m to blame for that and I apologize for confusing things. If you’re just not giving Lewis a fair trial, then I hope you will do so one day, even if you ultimately still disagree with him.

    I never said physical laws couldn’t be different. Logical laws can’t; and they are distinct from physical laws. Of course gravity could have been different. But if you’re meaning to suggest that there is a possible world, or could have been a world, in which something may be A and not-A at the same time and in the same sense (cf. the law of non-contradiction), then you’re just plain wrong.

    If you can’t see your way around the culture objection yourself, I doubt anything I say will be of help. Suffice it to say Different cultures exist, therefore a moral law doesn’t exist is a ridiculous weak argument. Moreover, this would not only be an issue for Lewis but for anyone who holds to the objectivity of moral values. If you believe “Child rape is wrong” to be an objective truth then you have the same “issue” (I use that term loosely) to resolve. Alternatively, if you think “Child rape is wrong” is only true in America (or cultures where the majority of the citizens believe it to be true) then you just have a mistaken sense of morality.

    What do you mean “Somewhat, yes”? It’s either yes or no. And it’s yes, in your case. (You ought to consider the implications of that “yes,” for yourself.) Your statement, “Actually it would be more accurate to say that I think that this substitution is what everyone is doing when they use those terms, whether they believe themselves to be doing so or not” is plain laughable. I remember reading something in one of your posts (or maybe it was a post you linked to) about how you don’t actually secretly believe in God like some theists claim atheists do. Now you’re going to tell me that I secretly mean child rape is bad for society when I say “Child rape is wrong,” even though I claim this is not what I do. That’s ridiculous, firstly, just because it’s plain ridiculous. This is what you believe where you realize it so or not! Right. Secondly, it’s ridiculous because it’s blatantly hypocritical in your case.

    Handmaiden, due to the fact that absolutely no progress has been made and that your understanding of Lewis has progressively gotten worse (which I apologize for, since it must have been because of something I said) I’m going to withdraw from this discussion. Of course you’re welcome to respond to this last post of mine. I would be interested it seeing that; but know that I will not be replying. I can’t honestly say I enjoyed the discussion since it seemed like I was just either repeating myself or attempting to correct a misrepresentation of something Lewis said; but nevertheless, thanks very much for taking time to respond and for being kind.

  20. 20 On August 17th, 2006, themaiden said:

    Don,

    My girlfriend once asked me, “Which is the better Chess piece: the Rook, or the Bishop?” I told her that I can’t rank either over the other. “But if you had too…” she continued. She ended up getting very angry with me, even though I explained that to answer on her terms would mean that I tell her something that I do not believe.

    I feel like I am in the same position with you. You insist I select from two options even though either would make a liar of me. And you refuse the honest answers I have been giving you. Sorry, I will not purger myself to satisfy your apparent need for a simplistic answer. I repeat, “as clearly as I can” on your terms would be lying or misleading on my part. That is not changing your questions. It is giving you the only honest answer I have. Fume all you like.

    Given the generous peppering of this last comment with petty little ad hominems, and given that you’ve decided to argue by frustrated assertion, I’m not inclined to continue.

  21. 21 On August 18th, 2006, Don Jr. said:

    This comment is only for those (if there are any) who scan this discussion and happen to read Handmaiden’s last comment without thoroughly following the entire discussion.

    My previous post, which Handmaiden makes some (frustrated?) assertions about, didn’t contain any “petty little ad hominems.” In fact, I apologized twice in that comment for misleading Handmaiden. I never once attacked him personally. The reason I bring this up is because I do not wish anyone to have a mistaken view of me, namely, that I am the type of person to dish out ad hominems. The only thing remotely resembling an ad hominem was my referring to Handmaiden, in a certain case, as being hypocritical. However, I explained why such a thing was true. Hypocritical is a word in the English language that has meaning. I explained how it exactly applied in a certain instance to Handmaiden. If an individual says he doesn’t like being treated a certain way yet turns around and treats another in that same way, then he or she is being hypocritical. Also, I made no assertions in my last post. Nor was I frustrated. Exclamation marks are done for emphasis, not out of frustration. Assertions lack explanations. I explained my statements. If it is meant that I simply made assertions even though I provided explanations then I’m not bothered since anybody wishing to say something at all has to do that. As to the (ad hominem?) charge of requiring “simplistic” answers, I cannot argue since I am a simple man. I do not find “It’s complicated” to be a satisfactory answer. That I cannot help.

  22. 22 On August 18th, 2006, themaiden said:

    Don,

    It is sad that the conversation has come to this, truly, because I was enjoying the discussion. I initially thought that you’d come intending to have a sincere exchange of ideas. I now believe that you came to correct me like a father scolding his child, and finding that I won’t shut up, listen, and accept uncritically whatever you utter, you’ve left in a snit leaving a trail of indignation. That, also, makes me very sad. My best friends, Don, have always been people with whom I disagree.

    I know we don’t agree. I did not expect that we would come to an agreement. Such results are rare. But I did not expect this end. Of course, you’ll deny it, but all the signs are there. There is a distinct shift in tone in these last posts of yours, making it hard to escape the conclusion I’ve come to. It’s depressing, honestly. If you’ve left an impression you didn’t intend, then I suggest that you reconsider your writing style and choices of phrase. For example…

    If you think that suggesting that I can’t comprehend a question that “A high school student completely ignorant of Platonism or the idea of a ‘metaphysical or supernatural realm