24th July 2006 Stumble it!

So why am I not a christian?

posted in Religion by themaiden |

Someone I knew long ago quipped to me that “all of the smart people stopped believing two hundred years ago.” Unfortunately, that isn’t true. While it seems that sanity did briefly start to take hold a few hundred years back, all of the smart people did not stop believing. Reason, in the whole, failed to escape the jaws of superstition and quite a large number of smart people do still believe– a fact which provides me no end of puzzlement, as we will get to eventually.

So, why am I not a Christian?

  • Well, accepting Christianity, or religion in general, for that matter, would require me to accept ‘facts’ which in most contexts would be considered irrational, if not downright insane. Harsh? What else can one say about a belief system ripe with magic, demons, witches and giants? No one– not the most fundamental of fundamentalists– believes in magic, demons, witches, fairies, gnomes, elves, or hookah smoking caterpillars in any context but the religious. But in the Biblical context, for example? In the Biblical context, anything goes. The animation of dirt-people? Why not? Talking shrubbery? Sure. Sentient storm clouds? Okey Dokey. Sticks that turn into snakes? Yep. Fires that don’t burn? Yes, indeed-ie. Zombies and the living dead? No problem… if Jesus is involved. Pig-suicide-causing evil spirits? Yep, those too. In short, to accept Christianity, I’d have to commit myself to a belief in magic.
  • Having committed myself to believing in magic, I’d then have to reconcile this belief with the fact that I’ve not ever witnessed, nor do I expect to ever witness, any such thing as magic– short of the Criss Angel variety. I’d probably do this by special pleading that… well, magic used to happen a very long time ago but it doesn’t anymore. I’m not sure why. I guess there is no good reason really, but to be a good Christian and (for me, at least) not go mad from the cognitive disjunct, I’d have to concoct one. I could, perhaps, twiddle with the logic a bit and claim that the lack of magic now does not imply the lack of magic then. Of course, in order to support the case I’d have to assume that a book of literature, folk tale, and myth is in fact, fact. Even so, I’ll not have explained why the magic stopped.
  • Accepting Christianity would require me to accept as fact a book which tells tales of ancient events baring little resemblance to the currently available evidence, as little history, or science, favors what the Bible states. That is a tough pill to swallow.
  • Luckily I can wash that pill down with a little self-fullfilling prophecy. My favorite is this: if you want something, pray to God for it. If you get what you request, then god answered the prayer. Hallelujah! But if you don’t get what you request, God still answered the prayer; he simply gave you a different answer than you wanted. He said “No.” Miraculously, God can be proven to always answer prayer. Unfortunately, the argument also works for the TV, or for Howard Stern, or for the purple Tele-Tubby. If you get what you want, the TV gave it to you; if not, then the TV gave you something it, in its greater wisdom, decided that you need more than you need the thing for which you asked. Amazing! No. Amazing Grace!
  • Wow! That is a heady cocktail, but to make things worse, not only is there no positive evidence for the validity of the Bible, but it contradicts virtually every observation about the universe that we are able to make, thereby casting doubt on its veracity as a whole, just as marching to the top of Mt. Olympus casts doubt on the veracity of Greek Myth. The structure of the stars and planets, the lack of evidence for a worldwide flood, the existence of dinosaur bones- nowhere do dinosaurs figure in Biblical tales. From where did they come? God must be playing one hell of a practical joke on we poor humans- that is, to tell us one thing and provide no evidence, yet provide mountains of evidence for the wrong answer. What a kidder! There are of course, Christians trying to force scientific evidence into a Biblical mold- the creationist crowd. My meager ablities are far more than adequate to poke holes in the junk science which these people produce. And I can do so in a matter of minutes. It is truly shameful. I’ve seen articles which start with sentences such as, “This is how God could have created the universe.” Could have? What does that mean? Mickey Mouse could have created the world by impregnating his concubine, Donald Duck, with the pubic hair of a smurf; but there is no evidence for that either. Of course, as a Christian, I’d have to accept the same junk science. You see, I agree with some of the radical creationists about one thing: If the Bible is wrong about the basic physics of the universe, why ought we trust it with the spiritual?
  • Simultaneously with accepting the Bible’s ahistorical tales as fact, I’d be obligated to reject as superstition and myth countless other such very similar tales from around the world– this, despite those tale’s having all the same claims to validity as the tales in the Bible, which, essentially means that people believe them, or used to believe them, and somebody wrote them down. Of course, I’ll not apply the same methods of reasoning– the textual criticism, the archeology, the cross-cultural comparisons– to my faith that I use to discount all those other wrong faiths.
  • Similarly, I’d be obligated to reject as superstition, fairly tales, and lies a good half-dozen common religions with their numerous associated gods and goddesses. I’d have to maintain that these various faiths were founded on and perpetuated by trickery and deceit, and depend upon human gullibility. I would of course resist applying to my own religion the methods of evaluation that I invoke to criticise other faiths. That could be dangerous. ‘Strange as it may be, the question I asked long years ago was not “Is God?” but “Which God?” The question was not one of rebellion– not an attempt to avoid the consequences of believing in a higher power, but an expression of the desire to follow the dictates of the correct higher power. This is the one question the faithful should not ask, for it is the death of certainty.’
  • This then brings up the issue of faith, and it is a complicated one. Faith, somehow, makes everything ok. Somehow, believing, or deciding to believe, makes all the contradictions go away. Faith is the evidence of things unseen. It proves all of those things we can’t prove… somehow. Well, it proves that someone believes something. It doesn’t prove that what that someone believes is true. As a new, or renewed I suppose, Christian I’d just have to get used to believing ’cause… uh, ’cause… ummm…. just because… um, just because I believe… and stuff.
  • Of course, faith only makes it better if that faith is the Correct Faith– that is, my newfound Christian faith– which can only be found by faith and must be believed on faith… um, the Correct Faith but not the incorrect ones… uh… the difference between the two can be known by faith…
  • But that isn’t very fulfilling is it? No. Certainly not. In fact it feels a bit childish. It would be much better to put faith on a pedestal and treat belief based on nothing at all as a badge of honor. Perhaps I’d tell myself the story of doubting Thomas. Mr. Doubting Thomas had quite a reasonable thought- “Is this really the guy I saw DIE the other day”- and acts upon it. The poor fool asks for evidence, and is chastised for it. Two thousand years later, the story is still good for teaching the faithful not to ask questions, not to ask for evidence. Why? Well, there isn’t any. That is what faith is for.
  • And that is what quoting the Bible is for. Once converted I’d start quoting it like mad too. I’ll develop, like every Christian with whom I have ever spoken, a strange inability to grasp the fact that quoting the Bible in no way influences people who do not already believe the Bible. This ought to be obvious, but it isn’t. I can quote anything I like, but unless my listener has a reason to believe my source, my quotations are meaningless. For example, if I quote Stephen Hawking while discussing a matter of cosmology or physics, the point ought to have some weight. After all, Hawking is quite brilliant and very well respected in his field. But if, on the other hand, I were to quote from “Boom-Boom La-Boom; The Musings of a Martian Stripper on Qualudes” concerning Superstring theory, it would be wise to doubt the source. Unfortunately, Christians don’t realize that the Bible is in the later category, and not the former. But, as a new convert, I’d have to swallow that too.
  • I’d also have to get used to quoting the Bible to prove that God wrote it so I can prove that the Bible is true. This is the old “the Bible says it is the word of God, so I believe it” argument; and it is circular- as circular as Barb’s enhanced mams. Oh, but, circular arguments don’t count.
  • The worst people I have ever known have been Christians, and I’ve known a lot of Christians. I was raised by them. I grew up surrounded by them. Everything I know about lying, deceit, spite, hate, anger, violence, vengefulness, cruelty, and abuse, I learned from Christians. Who was it that quipped “by their fruits shall you know them“?
  • Christians get called “stupid” to their faces by their God and they don’t seem to mind at all. Now, if it were me, I’d be very offended. What? How dare you? The answer is ‘Sheep’. The Bible calls the faithful sheep. Sheep are stupid– very, very stupid.

So, in effect, I am not a Christian because becoming one would force me into some profound intellectual dishonesty, and that is why I puzzle over how so many smart people do still believe. The logic twisting required to keep such belief afloat is staggering, as is the willingness to simply not think about certain topics and to think about various topics inconsistently.

And you wonder what is wrong with the world dominated by so many of the faithful. This dishonesty is bound to carry over into other aspects of life.

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There are currently 46 responses to “So why am I not a christian?”

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  1. 1 On July 24th, 2006, Friendly Neighborhood DJ said:

    What a fantastic post–it reminds me in a lot of ways of the logical path that lead me away from my Christian upbringing. I certainly didn’t grow up as a Bible-thumper, but church was a nonoptional Sunday morning activity. And it was OK–I even became an acolyte and eventually became crucifer (head acolyte, not the guy who does the crucifying). But then, as I started asking questions, I realized the church doesn’t really offer a whole lot of substance. Sure, there’s some well-meaning stuff in the teachings and plenty of well-meaning Christians, but at its core, it’s about believing stuff without being given any particular reason to believe other than “because we said so.” And then one gets into the circular logic of “the Bible is the word of God, so we know it’s true because it says so, and God wouldn’t lie, and we know it’s the word of God because it says so…” that you sum up so nicely.

    Basically, independent thought lead me to greener pastures. I don’t believe in magic, and wrapping that magic in some religious garb doesn’t make it any more believable. I find it funny when Christians scoff at, say, the Muslim notion of bevies of virgins waiting for the dead in heaven, and then turn around and ardently assert that Jesus was born of a virgin, died, came back to life, and in doing so, washed away a bunch of sin. To the outsider, one is just as silly as the other, but say that to a Christian, and you, sir, are a bigot of the worst kind! So your point about how a Christian will turn an intensely critical eye to the inconsistencies of other religions while wholeheartedly embracing even the wackiest parts of the Bible is an excellent one. That’s the sort of two-faced hypocrisy that helped show me what the church was really about.

    I do think there are some good lessons to be drawn from just about any religion–Jesus’ musings on the necessity of help for the less fortunate and invocation of the Golden Rule, for example. But at its core, religion is simply an attempt by early mankind to make sense of his world, to answer the big questions of where did we come from, how are we supposed to act, etc. And that’s all well and fine, but when people go beyond merely trying to cull the good lessons out of religion and cross into blind faith in the face of logic, that’s when the problems start.

  2. 2 On July 24th, 2006, themaiden said:

    Thanks Friendly.

    I rather expected to get angry comments on this one, but so far no righteous fury.

  3. 3 On July 25th, 2006, Sage said:

    I’m not a Christian mainly for the reason you mention near the end. I associate Christians with judgemental people who look down their noses at me and all my sinful ways. But that’s not what it’s all about according to the Gospels. I don’t believe Jesus Christ was the son of God, but nonetheless I’m a big fan of his work! He’s all about just loving and forgiving and ignoring the letter of the law in favour of just being good to one another. And judge not, dammit!

    But on your discussion of the facts in the Bible, I think many Christians read the stories in the Bible as metaphors for how to act and live rather than a literal historical report. So, it’s certainly possible to be Christian but not believe any of the “facts” written in that book.

  4. 4 On July 26th, 2006, marie said:

    Your post is filled with so many inaccuracies, falsehoods and misunderstandings of the bible, that I wouldn’t know where to begin to answer it. You did say one thing that I want to quickly reply to. You said, “nowhere do dinosaurs figure in Biblical tales” …. that is actually false, there is a scripture in Isaiah that describes a dinosaur-like creature, and there are one or two others as well, but the Isaiah one is pretty interesting.

    The only other thing I want to say is that it’s typical for humans to think they’re so wise and smart - your entire post just oozed with smug, “I’m too smart to believe” rhetoric. But a truly wise person knows that they don’t know everything, they have so much to learn, and unless you’re omniscient (which I think it’s safe to say, you aren’t) you really don’t know much, in the grand scheme of things.

    I could say much more, but as I said, your post had way too many things to reply to….it would take hours to sift through all that.

    Thanks for sharing though, and I hope you realize someday how wrong you are.

  5. 5 On July 26th, 2006, themaiden said:

    Typical, Marie.

    “You are so so so so so wrong wrong wrong wrong… but I can’t be bothered to tell you why.”

    I can tell you, though, why that reaction is so very typical. People react with a righteously indignant “I can’t get my hands dirty with this” because to address the issues head-on would mean showing thier cards; and showing their cards means admitting to various embarrassing facts– such as, in your case Marie, that you believe in dragons. What you pretend to be dinosaurs, scholars translate as ‘dragons’. What Isaiah mentions is a mythological big-bad-scary monster like the Kraken, Medusa, and Spiro. If we can invoke Job, we can even talk about fire breathing dragons. Neat, huh? You’ve really kinda made my point for me.
    Isaiah, by the way, doesn’t describe the dragon, the book just uses the word.

    So, that is your option #1: Believe in dragons, like the Bible says.

    Option #2 would be to accept that “dragon” is a catch-phrase for weird things the Israelites didn’t understand or were scared of– the word also means ’serpent’, ‘whale’, and ’sea-monster’–, but then you’d have no case.
    Option #3 is the one you’ve taken: Apologize for the Bible’s poor choice of words– and ignore that scholars don’t take this ‘dinosaur’ garbage seriously– and claim the “dragon” means “dinosaur”. Of course, you then run into a further problem. “Dragons” apparently lived side by side with people. That leaves you claiming that people lived side by side with dinosaurs, and the evidence is set heavily against that one.

    And yes, Marie. I am too smart to believe, just as you are too smart to believe in the Gods of Mt. Olympus, Pegasus, Shiva, Odin, and a thousand more. The only difference is that I apply the reasoning consistently.

  6. 6 On July 28th, 2006, garrett said:

    Nice strawman! You paint the weakest description of a Christian you can think of and then knock it down. Bravo!

    Since you believe we should all be consistent, why don’t I create my own atheist strawman in my mind and knock it down? Then I wouldn’t have to take atheism seriously because I’ve defeated the weakest form of it I can think of.

    If you were fair, you’d recognized that most people, whether theist or atheist, don’t take the time and effort to determine their worldview based on evidence. It’s not only Christians. People should investigate but most people are rather apathetic to these issues and just want to veg-out in front of the TV.

    I disagree you’d have to change very much to become a Fundamentalist Christian. You’re already a know-it-all who is judgmental, arrogant and close-minded. The main difference with you is that instead of batting for Jesus you’re batting for no one.

    The purpose of my sarcasm and insults are not to tear you down but to make a point that such methods are counterproductive to open communication.

    I think you could have a good blog here if you’d be less Funnymentalistic. The harsh tone is not helpful.

  7. 7 On July 28th, 2006, themaiden said:

    Lots of things going on there, Garrett.

    This is not the weakest form of Christianity I can imagine. For one, I didn’t make it up. This is the form of Christianity in which I was raised, and, frankly, visit the deep South– not the cities, but the rural parts– if you believe I’ve created this. If, after that, you still doubt me; take a look at Answers in Genesis or the Discovery Institute. If, even after that you doubt, try reading to Bible. I assure your that I did not make up to raising of the dead, the snakes turning to sticks, or the talking bushes that burn but do not burn up.

    I am well aware that people have rationalized away many of the problems I mention. I don’t buy those rationalizations. They are mental slight of hand. They don’t work for me.

    I’m not sure what point you mean to make by mentioning that most people don’t think. Well, no kidding?

    And finally, it is with surprise that I learn that you know me well enough to say that I am a “know-it-all who is judgmental, arrogant and close-minded.” In fact, it is bloody impossible for you to know these things. Me-thinks you got caught up in a bit of self-righteous indignation.

    Arrogant I’ll accept tongue-in-cheek, and I make a point to study, constantly. That rather annoys people who don’t know what the hell they are talking about. Closed-minded? All it takes is evidence to change my mind. If you want me to believe for some other reason or face the charge of being closed-minded– and that is usually what the charge means, “You don’t believe in Baseless-Assertion-X, so you are closed minded”–, then call me closed minded. Guilty.

  8. 8 On August 4th, 2006, garrett said:

    I know you didn’t make up a form of Christianity but there are other forms of it. You could choose to be a well-studied Christian, just as you are a well-studied Atheist. A knowledgeable Christian who actually lives out what the faith teaches would eliminate many of your objections.

    Now your objections concerning the Bible are different, since it’s not a form but the bedrock of the faith. I don’t feel I can properly address your charges of myth and historical/scientific inaccuracy without more specifics. (Maybe you’ve developed these elsewhere)? But you did reference a post about the miraculous in the Bible being magic, so I’ll address that.

    Your deduction seems to equate the supernatural with magic.

    1. The supernatural is magic.
    2. Christianity, believing the Bible, affirms the supernatural.
    3. Therefore, Christianity believes in magic.

    If I’ve understood you correctly, the first premise is inaccurate when applied to the Bible’s teaching. The Bible teaches:

    1. The supernatural is caused by a supernatural Being (God).
    2. Christianity, believing the Bible, affirms the supernatural.
    3. Therefore, Christianity believes in a supernatural God.

    The Bible condemns magic throughout. Here’s one example:

    Deuteronomy 18:10-12 “10 There shall not be found among you anyone who makes his son or his daughter pass through the fire, or one who practices witchcraft, or a soothsayer, or one who interprets omens, or a sorcerer, 11 or one who conjures spells, or a medium, or a spiritist, or one who calls up the dead. 12 For all who do these things are an abomination to the LORD, and because of these abominations the LORD your God drives them out from before you.”

    Most modern people equate magic with illusion (Chriss Angel). God’s acts are not illusions, but the power of the Creator over His creation.

  9. 9 On August 5th, 2006, themaiden said:

    Hello Garret.

    I’m glad you came back, and I’m glad you came back with something more substantial; but I have to ask, if you knew that I hadn’t made up this version of Christianity, then why did you spend two paragraphs, in your first comment, implying that I had in fact made it up, while at the same time accusing me of logical misbehavior? Did you think you could cow me with righteous indignation? That hardly seems honest. Did you think I wouldn’t call you on it?

    Not to spend too much time on this but it is virtually impossible to have a conversation with a defender of the faith without first wading through a barrage of prefabricated BS like that which drips from your first comment. It is rather annoying. Now on to your points.

    Being well read is the problem Garrett, not the solution. Yes, I could decide to be a well-studied Christian, but there is nothing in being well read that eliminates the nonsense– unless of course, ‘being well-studied’ means accepting some of the convoluted apologetics meant to gloss over more glaring absurdities. I am unwilling to accept complicated BS as being more reasonable than uncomplicated BS.

    You are correct that, to paraphrase Will Durant (I think), were Christians to astonish chrissendom by actually behaving like Christians some of my objections would be moot. However, this doesn’t prove the truth of the underlying faith any more than a well behaved Buddhist would prove the veracity of Buddhism to you.

    As for magic, renaming a thing does not change the thing. What you are doing is special pleading. If Voodun priestess appealed to her Gods for help in next week’s football game, you’d call it magic. If a Christian prays– appeals to the Judeo-Christian God for the same assistance– you call it supernatural. When Moses’ staff changes to a snake it’s ‘miraculous’ but when the Pharaoh’s people do the same thing it’s ‘magic’? Such word shuffling is logically bankrupt.

  10. 10 On August 8th, 2006, Why I am no longer a christian » The Allen Almanac said:

    [...] This post on Hell’s Handmaiden got me to thinking. I used to be a christian, or at least, I went to christian churches most Sunday’s. I always felt like I stood out. I felt like people were unaccepting of me because I didn’t “believe enough.” Although it could have been that they just didn’t like me. There were a lot of other differences between us besides just that. But I still went most every Sunday. So the question is, why don’t I go anymore? I thought I’d outline my reasons (while trying to plagiarize Hell’s Handmaiden as little as possible). [...]

  11. 11 On August 8th, 2006, Peanut said:

    Way to go, Marie. No wonder you shut your mouth, themaiden’s right. I’m sick and tired of Christians unable to tell me why I’m wrong, or why anyone else is wrong when they do not believe, and yet are unable to tell me exactly -why- they think that. Is it because the bible told you so? Or because you really don’t have any way, AT ALL, to tell me that I am incorrect? You judge too quickly, and your display was another reason I’m not too into religion. If your way isn’t right, no way is.

  12. 12 On August 9th, 2006, Terry said:

    “I’ll develop, like every Christian with whom I have ever spoken, a strange inability to grasp the fact that quoting the Bible in no way influences people who do not already believe the Bible.”

    LOVE THIS LINE! Nothing turns me off faster than someone quoting the Bible. I’ve often thought that I should memorize the Bhagavad Gita, or something, and quote material to those folks just to see the puzzled looks on their faces.

  13. 13 On August 9th, 2006, Diegorob said:

    Kudos to handmaiden for kicking off this exhilarating dialogue. Keep it going, make your thoughts and feelings heard.
    There is hope that even those arguing in circles may accidentally roll onto some new way of perceiving their ‘truth’

    If you have never read James Morrow then I urge everyone to check him out.
    ‘Believers’ and ‘Thinkers’ alike
    A brilliant writer and very relevant

    http://www.sff.net/people/Jim.Morrow/index2.html

  14. 14 On August 9th, 2006, dane said:

    I am 72 and have been a lifelong atheist. I have heard all the arguments on both sides
    over and over again. I was trained as a scientist and for many years could not understand
    why people who’s scientific intellect I really respected could believe in God. Why could
    they not see, as I could, that belief in God was ridiculous?
    Eventually I realized that the scientists who really understand this dichotomy are those
    who study the workings of the human brain, i.e. neurobiologists. They do not try to
    discredit religion, they simply apply the scientific method to studying why “spiritual”
    feelings are so universal. This work leads to the conclusion that supernatural beliefs are
    an evolutionary development that helped our early ancestors cope with and survive in the
    face of daunting reality. Just like other facets of human behavior which are a the result of
    evolutionary necessity (e.g. aggression, sex etc.) some people have more of it than others.
    Its really that simple.
    It is ironic of course that Evolution created God!
    Anyone interested in the biological basis for belief in all things supernatural, would do
    well to read:-

    “Why God Won’t Go Away (Brain Science and the Biology of Belief)” by Andrew Newberg, MD et al.
    and
    “The God Part of the Brain” by Matthew Alper.

  15. 15 On August 9th, 2006, nick said:

    all i have to say is bravo. exactly what i believe, with exactly the same opponents respond as ive had when i try and put across my views on this. if only people could really get out of the tradition of learning christianity, or any organized religion at a young age and so much more of the world would start seeing exactly how unbelievably irrational organized religions are, especially christianity.

  16. 16 On August 9th, 2006, Megan said:

    Oh Handmaiden, my new favourite web being.

    the way you phrase your article about not being a christian is how i’ve always felt but couldn’t really express, and you did it so beautifully. this won’t be a long comment because i know how annoying it is to read 5 pages of comments that go on and on, so here is my piece to why i am not a christian….

    religion isn’t something that should be used as a sheild for not having to explain/question what one believes. it’s not something that, just for having automatically makes you a good person.
    With all the Christians i have known (highly C family, friends etc) i find that they are not open when i challenge their religion, they sometimes get upset when i ask questions and don’t understand their religion.

    you should be able to chose what you believe in, it shouldn’t chose you, how is something supposed to liberate you if it constantly serves to weigh you down.

    thanks

  17. 17 On August 9th, 2006, KV said:

    all I can say is “I AM THE WAY THE TRUTH AND THE LIFE; NO MAN CAN COME UNTO THE FATHER BUT BY ME JOHN 14:6″ and if you think God does not exist, then go look at your self in the mirror and you will see his creation or look outside, the trees, the sky, everything he made not man, and as for you maiden or what ever your name is, one day remember this one day it will be revealed to you that our TRUE AND ONLY GOD JESUS CHRIST exist and there is only one God which is himself, daily it is being revealed to many and one day it will be revealed to you why? because our God is a awesome God! and many might ask why things happen well our God is mysterious and he knows what he is doing maybe to many it does not make sense but he knows what he is doing, its like if you ask your self why was I born? for what purpose? all that will be revealed just ask him, (seriously) just ask him “WHY” and in time he will show you why. GOD BLESS YOU ALL!! ;)

  18. 18 On August 9th, 2006, Jeff said:

    Wow, you’re one of my new favorite people on the web. I’ve been saying similar things and fighting against some of the same stupid people on a board I post on. If you’d like to read them, feel free to follow the links. I post under the moniker Lukasha.

    Beating the Dead Horse

    More proof that organized religions and the nutballs in charge of them are evil

    Jeff

  19. 19 On August 9th, 2006, themaiden said:

    Several of you have expressed some kind words– Terry, Diegorob, Nick, Megan, Jeff. I don’t want that to go unacknowledged.

    Thanks.

  20. 20 On August 9th, 2006, themaiden said:

    I have a friend who used to be able to quote the Bible so proficiently he could turn the faithful upside down and backwards with their own source. It was quite amusing.

  21. 21 On August 9th, 2006, themaiden said:

    I edited some of you html. I think WordPress mangled it.

  22. 22 On August 10th, 2006, hell’s handmaiden » Blog Archive » Damned Uppity Atheists said:

    [...] I have been accused of this crime of hubris more times than I can count. A typical incarnation of the charge is below, and comes from a comment by marie to a post of mine. The only other thing I want to say is that it’s typical for humans to think they’re so wise and smart - your entire post just oozed with smug, “I’m too smart to believe” rhetoric. But a truly wise person knows that they don’t know everything, they have so much to learn, and unless you’re omniscient (which I think it’s safe to say, you aren’t) you really don’t know much, in the grand scheme of things. [...]

  23. 23 On August 10th, 2006, bonekrusher said:

    Great article, love the use of REASON here instead of just blindly following the musings of some writer who’s been dead for at least 20 centuries. I used to think that religion was a crutch for those too weak minded to figure anything out for themselves. But then I had to force myself to stop thinking that way after meeting several very deeply religious people whom I also considered intelligent. Interestingly enough its the smarter ones that dont want to argue it, because I think they can see the flawed logic, and the less intelligent ones will go on for hours about how the bible proves everything. Go figure, anywho, keep up the writing.

    Cheers!

  24. 24 On August 13th, 2006, David said:

    I’m sorry, but this post is simplistic and way too nasty.

    You claim that you are a philosopher by training. So act like one! Being emotionally wounded by your upbringing doesn’t make being a snarky jerk a good way to convince people to give up emotional attachment to irrationality, now does it?

    Please also remember that while the worst people you have ever known may have been Christians, the people responsible for the worst crimes against humanity in history — Stalin and Mao — were atheists. Show just a little humility for God’s sake! (Please pardon the expression.)

    You are quite right, maiden, that considering the various myths and legends in the Bible as literal history is absurd. But I find it equally absurd to reject a religion based on a purely literal reading of its myths.

  25. 25 On August 14th, 2006, themaiden said:

    David,

    Hello.

    Act like a philosopher you say? What exactly does that mean? Cold? Passion-less? Plodding? Dry? Dull? Unobtrusive?

    No.

    Jesus was rather abrasive at times, as were his Old Testament predecessors. So was Socrates and pretty much the whole of the Greco-Roman cynic/stoic crowd. Voltaire insulted more than a few of his contemporaries. Spinoza managed to get himself accused of ‘abominable heresies’ and ‘monstrous deeds’. Long story short, the “tuck oneself away in a cramped office and contemplate” stereotype is fairly new. I don’t like it; and I suspect it is part of the reason that the mother of most of our modern intellectual disciplines is almost entirely ignored in this modern world. A person has to make some noise, and twelve page essays on “what does ‘bald’ mean?” just don’t do it.

    Well its nice that you can name two bad atheists– and you could have mentioned that Stalin was trained in a seminary–, but the blood they shed really doesn’t measure up to the blood shed in Christianinity’s two thousand years. More generally, how often have you heard of this or that ‘war of religion’? How often have you heard of this or that ‘war of atheism’? The latter doesn’t happen. Even your examples do not count. Atheist or not, Stalin and Mao were not motivated by atheism. Thiers were not wars “of” atheism. They were motivated by power and greed, which is probably how you’d justify religious violence; and there is something to that. Lots and lots of things boil down to power and money; but not everything, and the world provides plenty of examples of truly religious based slaughter.

    Absurd to reject a religion based on a purely literal reading of its myths? Well, we know the Greek Myths are myths. Is it absurd to reject the religion? How about any of a hundred Native American myths? Is it absurd to reject those religions? Suppose we read Hindu myth metaphorically? Does that make the religion true? Nope. The thing is, I can read any of these, even the Bible, and see that the stories are valid expressions of the human condition. I can also read Dune and find some very find ideas. That doesn’t mean that the House Atreides ruled, rules, or will rule a desert planet sporting giant worms.

  26. 26 On December 11th, 2006, hell’s handmaiden » Blog Archive » Waldo on creationism. said:

    [...] So why am I not a christian? [...]

  27. 27 On January 3rd, 2007, hell’s handmaiden » Blog Archive » St. Isidore and his Etymologies said:

    [...] Honestly, this need to play by different rules according to context is a primary reason why I cannot be a Christian, but let’s not single out the Jesus cult too much. The same reasoning applies to most faiths. Accepting the tenants of one religion “would require me to accept ‘facts’ which in most contexts would be considered irrational, if not downright insane…”  For example, “In the Biblical context, anything goes. The animation of dirt-people? Why not? Talking shrubbery? Sure. Sentient storm clouds? Okey Dokey. Sticks that turn into snakes? Yep. Fires that don’t burn? Yes, indeed-ie. Zombies and the living dead? No problem…” But talk about Athena jumping from the head of Zeus, and suddenly I’ve left the realm of reason? Hmmm… something doesn’t quite add up. [...]

  28. 28 On February 5th, 2007, hell’s handmaiden » Blog Archive » Killing Christians said:

    [...] Still, training a brain to think crooked is a bad place to start, and that is precisely what religion does. You can train a head to bend its way around religious ‘fact’ and expect it to still function rationally in other circumstances. It is like teaching children that 2+2=3, 2*2=5, 5/2=4, and 4-3=2… then expecting them to excel at accounting. Honestly folks, logic is learned behavior, like mathematics, like language. No one expects a child taught bad math to make good calculations. Why do we expect a child taught poor thinking to make rational decisions? [...]

  29. 29 On February 5th, 2007, StealthBadger said:

    Gotta add to this one.

    I don’t believe in deities because I don’t, and in living within the world, I’ve not run intoanything that demands a change in this belief.

    I’m particularly glad I don’t belong to the Judaic/Christian/Muslim family of faiths, because that particular deity is represented as having, in the worlds of Robert A. Heinlein, “the manners and morals of a three-year-old child.” As well as more than a touch of MPD. With a dollop of Narcissistic Personality Disorder on the side.

  30. 30 On February 14th, 2007, fool4Christ said:

    If you put your faith in evolution, your faith is placed in something with abilities greater than yourself that produced things you aren’t able to produce. No man has ever made something from nothing. You couldn’t even design a machine that can effectively pick oranges. Men are ever learning and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth. Through wisdom they knew not God. God chose the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe. The most learned and profound arguments against Christianity are being quoted by men and women who didn’t even know their right hand from their left a few decades ago. Some one taught you, no-one teaches God. I didn’t see an argument against the fact that Moses and the magicians actually did handle a stick that became a snake, so would you not also have to lump in the fact that Moses got 2 tables of stone that just happen to point out the fact that you have not been able to keep 10 points given. Just try to do it. How is it if God does not exist that you keep breaking 10 commandments if they are just arbitrarily thought up? Have you never stolen, told a lie, made yourselves or brought to yourselves “idols” of worship, etc.? If it turns out there is an eternal being that has never violated that which Moses displayed might that not create a problem for you out there yonder in time and space? Don’t you kind of enjoy receiving worship from those that gawk on your knowledge and respond in admiration?

  31. 31 On April 24th, 2007, hell’s handmaiden » Blog Archive » Damned Witches! said:

    [...] Unlike many of the faithful on the right who whine about religious freedom, I actually do support religious freedom. When I say that I support religious freedom I do not mean that “I support everyone’s right to follow my religion.” What I mean is that however stupid I think your faith is– and by implication, however stupid I think you are– I do support your right to practice it so long as it doesn’t involve, for example, making candles out of baby fat or otherwise injuring non-consenting people. I am quite happy to be tolerant, but that doesn’t mean I have to keep my mouth shut. [...]

  32. 32 On April 27th, 2007, hell’s handmaiden » Blog Archive » Well… I do think he’s crazy said:

    [...] I do think he’s crazy. Of course, I also think those “72 virgins” people are crazy as well… and those zombie worshippers… and… [...]

  33. 33 On May 27th, 2007, An American Terrorist | hell's handmaiden said:

    [...] a godless atheist freak. He was arrested soon after and charged with manufacturing [...]

  34. 34 On May 27th, 2007, Killing Christians | hell's handmaiden said:

    [...] crooked is a bad place to start, and that is precisely what religion does. You can train a head to bend its way around religious ‘fact’ and expect it to still function rationally in other circumstances. It is like teaching children [...]

  35. 35 On May 27th, 2007, Waldo on creationism. | hell's handmaiden said:

    [...] So why am I not a christian? [...]

  36. 36 On May 27th, 2007, St. Isidore and his Etymologies | hell's handmaiden said:

    [...] this need to play by different rules according to context is a primary reason why I cannot be a Christian, but let’s not single out the Jesus cult too much. The same reasoning applies to most faiths. [...]

  37. 37 On June 26th, 2007, trish said:

    Thank you for this post. I was raised in a super-duper religious environment and it took me 28 years to finally have the guts to leave it officially (intellectually i had checked out long ago, but the social relationships were complicated).
    It comes down to some very simple things: logic, reason, and seeing some of the most heinous and terrible things committed by Christians (not only that, but done ‘in love’. It makes me sick.)

    I feel very free now to live my life without an imperialistic religious grouping dictating my behavior or belief.

  38. 38 On June 26th, 2007, themaiden said:

    Thank you, Trish. I appreciate the feedback.

  39. 39 On June 26th, 2007, Nicole said:

    Hello Maiden. Although we have a giant gap in our level of belief (whereas I am a so-called magic believing Christian, you are not), I have to say I loved your article. It was well thought out and well written. Unlike many I have read in the past. Although, I do take issue with some of your statements, here and now is not the place (although if you would like to discuss it I would be willing).

    And for all those Christians out there arguing: guys, give it up. You cannot convince someone with mere words to feel something they do not feel. God will handle that on His own. You are just making yourself look like an ass.

    By the way, maiden, I am adding you to my list of favorites on my Blog. I really do love the site!

  40. 40 On June 27th, 2007, themaiden said:

    Hi Nicole,

    Sounds like you are the kind of friend I am always happy to have.

    I realize that there are some theological kinks that might change the implications of some of things I wrote, and there are some stock objections that I could recite as quick as anyone. Please though, feel free to bring up whatever you like. I’ll listen.

  41. 41 On October 3rd, 2007, Wanderer said:

    Ok, I’m just going to say it. This post expressed my sentiments about Christianity.

    I’m 19. I do not claim to know the workings of the universe. I’ve never been very good at math, so some of the more abstract views on cosmology baffle me without a layman translation. I accept this fact. Same with other things I don’t understand. But, if interest compels me, then I consciously take up pursuit after these mysteries. I don’t attribute them to God, and then forget about them. Oh, how I would love to some days! To just turn off the mind, to be able to accept one cookie-cutter statement that clears me of inquiry and carelessly attributes everything that I know and am to God. I just find this to be impossible if a person acts and thinks with some sort of intelligence. If God gave us reason, why wouldn’t he want us to use it? This is not to say that I am completely against the notion of a deity. I accept the fact of a deity to possibly be an answer to things I don’t know or understand just as I do advanced quantum mechanics. But to justify a book and notion of a deity that is as contradicting, as blatantly violent as the Bible and Christianity appears to me to be would go against every moral fiber that I have. How can a supposed endless love stem out of something as horrible as a hell with endless punishment and hate? Why is it that when I look at the faces of children suffering, with no help from anyone, that I can’t help but despise the “It’s all in God’s plan” excuse. How very hateful of Christians. As far as I’m concerned, the Bible is a literary work with important significance in history, and is a direct and indirect result of the writers’ views/philosophies/etc, as is EVERY written thing. Even this post. Christians really do break my heart.

  42. 42 On October 5th, 2007, Know Religion, Know Nonsense | hell's handmaiden said:

    [...] What amazes me is that McKellen takes the Bible seriously enough to bother dismantling it. I wouldn’t rip pages out of the Bible any more than I’d rip pages from any other work of fiction. Not that I’d recommend it but if you are going to toss the trash you may as well toss the whole thing– you won’t have much left after you remove the rape, slavery, genocide, kidnapping of child brides, incest, murder, talking shrubbery… [...]

  43. 43 On December 7th, 2007, It doesn't get any more clear | hell's handmaiden said:

    [...] So, why am I not a Christian? [...]

  44. 44 On December 9th, 2007, Michael Goodale said:

    I am a logical Christian. I have experienced the conversion miracle in my life and have suffered ever since falling away into reason and pity and remorse and all the things this Bible says will happen. The age of darkness, but the Bible does promise we will overcome and return to that spiritual conversion experience in old age. I eagerly await it. I can’t explain it. Repentance brings on the miracle of faith, but we are evil and sin daily and cannot continue in that miracle. So we live our evil lives under the wrath of God even though we are “saved”. The Christian church is not logical. Logic and reason rule the age, at least the end of the age. This is the time where the Spirit said knowledge will increase and men will travel to and fro and still not get it. I’m going to hell and only Christ can save me and throughout time and all civilations there have been many Christs and many virgin births, etc. Jesus is the Christ of our age which is soon coming to an end an even He doubted He will find faith on earth when He comes. Logic and reason have a strong place in the Bible. Contend with God and He will listen to you. He is not afraid of response. He gives in every now and then too. He loves that humans can reason. We are not subservient machines worshipping without knowledge. We are truth seekers who question His very existence. It is Christ who gave us that ability to reason with God. That is the salvation. The bridge, has anyone seen the bridge, where is that confounded bridge? We are evil and logic is the basis of that evil. Jesus is the bridge for our time. And together we will walk across the river Styx and together we will approach the gates of Heaven with our ultimatum. Logic surpasses reason and reason is unreasonable to say the least. We won. We have victory. The human race has not only found the tree of knowledge, but will also partaken of the tree of life. It is time and Jesus Christ is the Way. God reconciled Himself to Us through Jesus on the cross. It is a mystery and it is the glory of kings to find it out. God was never willing that any of us should suffer eternal hell. He Himself reconciled us to Him, through knowledge and reason and logic. in this only reason is flawed, because we as humans cannot comprehend the other realms of existence. We are dimensional beings. That is not our fault. Reason is flawed. Logic is mathematical and geometrical and God is this also. It is the basis of all that is created. There are unlimted dimensions, unlimited worlds, dimensions and hells. It is impossible to comprehend with our limited minds. Except through logic, which is math, which is the key to the universes. Geeze I could go on forever but would you understand? maya2012theend@hotmail.com

  45. 45 On May 28th, 2008, Anonymous said:

    The Bible was from thousands of years ago, yet it has accurately predicted the future. All of its prophecies have come true…there is no way that ordinary literature written by men could have done that.
    Also, if you say that what is in the Bible is just “magic”, then what is your definition of magic? Just because we have not experienced those phenomenons in our time does not mean they cannot exist or are “magic”. Science can be magic for that matter, but we dismiss it as not since we are able to explain it. But the human capacity to explain things only goes so far.

  46. 46 On May 29th, 2008, themaiden said:

    Anonymous,

    There are two types of ‘predictions’ in the Bible: 1) ‘predictions’ written down by people after the fact and 2) ‘predictions’ so vague as to be true no matter what. My mom, for example, used to talk about how the Bible predicted ‘wars and rumors of wars’. Well, big deal. There are always wars and rumors of wars. You need no supernatural knowledge to make that guess.

    ‘Magic’– excepting stage magic– is defined pretty straightforwardly as ‘the actions of supernatural powers’. ‘Stuff God does’ certainly qualifies no matter how you slice it and regardless of what we understand or of science or technology can do. That is an interesting tack though. Do you really mean to suggest that the things God did in the Bible were some kind of technology? That to ’scrape the dust off the temple floor to produce abortions but only in guilty women’ represents the use of some kind of science?

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