17th August 2007 Stumble it!

I’m sorry! Really. I am.

posted in Religion by themaiden |

I’ve been thinking about apologies, but not the kind in the headline. I’ve been thinking about apologetics– “the study of the defense of a doctrine or belief“.

The term apologetics etymologically derives from the Classical Greek word apologia. In the Classical Greek legal system two key technical terms were employed: the prosecution delivered the kategoria (κατηγορία), and the defendant replied with an apologia. To deliver an apologia then meant making a formal speech to reply and rebut the charges, as in the case of Socrates’ defense.

Apologetics

The term is now almost always applied in religious contexts, but such is not absolutely necessary.

Now let’s talk about Homer– the one that wrote the Iliad, not the one that likes donuts. If we found in Homer a passage where the soul is described as dissipating into the wind at death, and another where it is described as descending to the shadowy underworld, would we go out of our way to reconcile the two concepts? If we noticed that two ancient authors give conflicting reports about the parentage of some god or goddess, would we spend our days reasoning the discrepancies into agreement? If we noticed that the time line in some tale could not possibly be accurate, would we spend generations constructing elaborate corrections? If we found a passage that tells us that Zeus is slow to anger and just, and another that tells us he is short-tempered and vengeful, how many minds would we put to work building a bridge between the ideas that we can somehow argue that the two are not contradictory? How much effort would we waste reconciling peculiarities in the Enuma Elish? How much energy would we expend arguing that when the Egyptians talked about the four corners of the Earth they were really talking about a sphere, and when the Babylonians talked about the ‘dome’ of the heavens they were really describing the solar system as scientists now understand it? How large an edifice of definition, association, and inference would we build to prove that the Egyptian hierarchy of gods, which comes almost in almost as many varieties as there were temples, is in fact utterly self consistent? How much time would it be before we concluded the obvious– that the accounts are just not consistent?

“Not much time” is my guess. Yet apologists, theologians, have spent thousands of years on just these sorts of things. I can’t help but be stunned by the waste of brainpower, and I am left asking ‘Why?” The answer, I think, has got to be this: “To pour oneself into such efforts at reconciliation, you’ve got to start with the assumption, the dogmatic assumption, that your text is absolutely accurate and cannot be wrong.” You are left then, fitting the facts to the text and, of course, fitting the text to itself, even where the fit is tragically bad. Hence the complicated apologetics that would seem so foolish if attempted with such texts as the Iliad or the Book of the Dead.

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There are currently 20 responses to “I’m sorry! Really. I am.”

Why not let us know what you think by adding your own comment! Your opinion is as valid as anyone elses, so come on... let us know what you think.

  1. 1 On August 18th, 2007, jameshigham said:

    Nice post. Bag has a nice piece on this too.

  2. 2 On August 18th, 2007, themaiden said:

    James,

    I have to admit to being a little surprised that you approve.

  3. 3 On August 20th, 2007, Deep Thought said:

    You are trying to summarize a rather large field (Christian apologetics) within the narrow confines of your own poor understanding of mainstream theology. The three main Christian theologies, Catholic, Lutheran, and Calvinist, do not consider the bible to be word-for-word directly literal. Same with Judaism (thus, the Talmud, mishnah, etc.). Thus, the ‘huge waste of brainpower’ you describe has been engaged in something rather different than you imagine. Some of the output of theology ranges from Just War Theory to the concept of inherent rights and the equality of all people before the law.

    Hardly a waste!

    Like too many atheists, I fear, you seem to think that the United Pentecostal Church minister on cable access is an accurate reflection of the 3,000+ of thought on theology that underpins modern civilization. He isn’t. The Jesuits who invented seismology and the work of the cleric named Copernicus are much more in line with the output of theology.

  4. 4 On August 20th, 2007, themaiden said:

    Hello Deep,

    Astronomy and seismology are not ‘theology’ no matter who does the work. It is really a bit weird to pretend that they are.

    Second, it amazes me what people who don’t know me pretend to know about me, take your whole first paragraph as an example. I’ve come to expect this and I’ve come to believe that it is a kind of knee-jerk defensive reaction born of having to defend something as not-mythology that is fundamentally mythology and it borders on a kind of ‘no true scotman’ claim to boot. I don’t take it personally.

    Third, certainly not all of theology– and frankly I think you are confusing ‘theology’ and ‘apologetics’, but that is a small point– consists of the kinds of things I mentioned, but everything I mentioned can be found in the works of the many apologists the world has known (in any religious tradition you care to mention) and those things can be found in abundance. So trying to shift the focus is, well, just trying to shift the focus.

    I don’t think that all of theology is a waste– strange, I know. I actually count some of the first millenia (mostly) Jewish mystics/metaphysicians as major influences. Certainly a great deal of social, political, philosophical and other work has been done directly or indirectly in connection with theology, but I wasn’t talking about that. I was talking about, well, the kinds of things I mentioned.

    I like when you comment, by the way. It is always interesting.

  5. 5 On September 16th, 2007, No More Mr. Nice Guy! said:

    Great post! As I read it, I thought of the religionists who attack Richard Dawkins for not having a deep understanding of theology. Why should he? Theology isn’t about discovering facts, it’s about proselytizing a particular set of religious beliefs. In so far as it claims to discover new knowledge, it is nothing but a gigantic exercise in question-begging. When you start out by assuming that your god exists and the bible is his holy word and must be accepted as true, there’s nowhere else to go except debating about how many angels can dance on the point of a pin. Theology is a house of cards built on quicksand. It may be the most elaborate and byzantine house of cards ever built, but I don’t need to be an architect to known that it is going to come crashing down at the first breath of fresh air.

  6. 6 On September 18th, 2007, Deep Thought said:

    Maiden,
    Well, I do come here and read/comment so I am painfully aware of just how limited your understanding of theology is. This is no more surprising than when I read someone trying to claim that the laws of thermodynamics means evolution is false - I can conclude that they have a rather limited understanding of thermodynamics and evolution.

    And seismology and astronomy are, indeed, the fruits of theology - Catholic theology represents the world as rational and coherent, leading theologians to study the world around them to understand rationality. St. Justin Martyr argued that rationality is how Man is made in the image of God so, it follows, the use of reason is an inherently good action. This was the basis for the creation of the university system - to get these formalized theological statements to as many people as possible; people trained by theologians that the world is rational and that the use of reason is innately good went on to study nature in a rational manner. This is why many of the earliest breakthroughs in fields as diverse as geology and geometry, biology and astronomy came from the monasteries.

  7. 7 On September 18th, 2007, Deep Thought said:

    Nice Guy,
    People have been making that claim about houses of cards and fresh air for, oh, centuries - when, exactly, will the truth (as you claim it) triumph?

  8. 8 On September 18th, 2007, themaiden said:

    Deep,

    “Well, I do come here and read/comment so I am painfully aware of just how limited your understanding of theology is.”

    That is such a weak claim… weak if only because of the utter emptiness of it– meaning that you can’t cough up any support, or you can’t be bothered to try. Either way is annoying and either way it reeks of pompous preacher on a pulpit. No offense.

    What statements like yours mean, if I may speculate, is “You disagree with me but rather than engage the issue I’m going to instead make dogmatic assertions about your competence.” Such a tact could arguable be one of several informal fallacies. Congrats. But really, it gets tiresome. It is usually one of the first cards played by the faithful. It amounts to, “You’re stupid so I don’t have to argue.” Very, very lame. You may as well stick out your tongue and make fart noises. I repeat, “I’ve come to expect this and I’ve come to believe that it is a kind of knee-jerk defensive reaction born of having to defend something as not-mythology that is fundamentally mythology… I don’t take it personally.”

    You make the same mistake all over again. That some particular work was performed by a theologian, or a monk, or priest does not make that work automatically theology. If it did a mathematician could publish a novel and call it calculus.

    That some particular strain of theology encouraged rational inquiry does not make rational inquiry ‘theology’, much less does it make the results of that inquiry ‘theology’. You can name theology as a kind of social influence but that is about it, and you’d also have to name a number of other influences to keep things fair.

  9. 9 On September 18th, 2007, Deep Thought said:

    Handmaiden,
    Let us cast our eyes to my first comment in this very thread, shall we? Then I shall quote me,

    “The three main Christian theologies, Catholic, Lutheran, and Calvinist, do not consider the bible to be word-for-word directly literal.”

    This was the evidence I have already presented in this very thread that you have a weak understanding of the theology you are attempting to refute in this post. Your attempt centers on the inability to have a word-for-word literal reading of the bible be non-contradictory; I pointed out that the vast majority of Christians, especially theologians, do not take the bible to be word-for-word literal.

    I hardly felt the need to restate this in the same thread. My mistake.

    Let me also quote some examples of the output of theology that I mentioned as direct,

    “Some of the output of theology ranges from Just War Theory to the concept of inherent rights and the equality of all people before the law.”

    I spoke of things like seismology, etc., and indirect results of the fruits of theology. But when you hear things like, say, “We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights” that this is, yes, the *direct* output of that ‘huge waste of brainpower’ called Theology.

  10. 10 On September 19th, 2007, themaiden said:

    Deep,

    “Let us cast our eyes to my first comment in this very thread, shall we? Then I shall quote me.” — I had to borrow that bit… I like it.

    The point you quote– “The three main Christian theologies, Catholic, Lutheran, and Calvinist, do not consider the bible to be word-for-word directly literal.”– I didn’t object to. It doesn’t count against my point and I just simply didn’t mention it. But perhaps I should have mentioned it.

    I never said anything about word-for-word directly literal. I wrote phrases like “reconcile the two concepts” and “reasoning the discrepancies into agreement”. These phrases are not meant to imply literal interpretation. That part is your insertion. Now for the interesting bit.

    That the “three main theologies” as you call them do not consider the Bible word-for-word literally true actually counts toward my point. Either you take a book at face value and read “six day creation” as “six day creation” or you create convoluted apologetics to explain that “six day creation” actually means something quite different. In effect, if you aren’t going to read it word-for-word literally you have to do just what I complain about. Of course, if you do try to read it literally you end up with many of the same problems as the Holy Writ contradicts itself on that level. This brings me right back to the question I asked in the post, “Why bother?” Would we bother if we were talking about the Iliad? We might bother to figure out what a passage means, but would we bother to explain why apparent contradictions aren’t really really really contradictions? Would we create some kind of non literal rendering of the text in order to smooth out the jagged bits?

    As for the second point you quote– “Some of the output of theology ranges from Just War Theory to the concept of inherent rights and the equality of all people before the law.”– did you not read the second half of my comment #4? Especially the fourth paragraph which starts with “I don’t think that all of theology is a waste…”?

  11. 11 On September 19th, 2007, Deep Thought said:

    Somewhere between ‘huge waste of brainpower’ and my own comments the statement ‘not all theology is a waste’ seemd a bit less than positive; sorta’ along the lines of ‘but she has a nice personality, really’.

  12. 12 On September 19th, 2007, themaiden said:

    Deep,

    Does this mean you won’t be replying to the now elaborated point?

  13. 13 On September 21st, 2007, Deep Thought said:

    Not at all! I am just busy enough in the Real World I was gonna’ wait until tomorrow.

  14. 14 On September 21st, 2007, themaiden said:

    Deep,

    Okey dokey. I look forward to it.

  15. 15 On September 21st, 2007, BruceA said:

    Maiden -

    I’m not sure I completely follow your reasoning. At one point in your comments you say that apologists “defend something as not-mythology that is fundamentally mythology.” I’m with you there. Even though I’m a Christian I think the early chapters of Genesis clearly fit in the category of mythology.

    But then in a later comment you say, “Either you take a book at face value and read ’six day creation’ as ’six day creation’ or you create convoluted apologetics to explain that ’six day creation’ actually means something quite different,” and I wonder why taking Genesis 1 at face value suddenly means reading it as a history book. It seems to me that “face value” should be determined by the genre of the story, not by modern creationist apologetics.

  16. 16 On September 22nd, 2007, themaiden said:

    Bruce,

    That is a fair point. Let me see what i can do with it.

    First, some clarification. When I talk about the Bible being fundamentally mythology, I don’t mean just the first few chapters of Genesis. I mean most of it. I mean the latter chapters of Genesis as well as the first, plus Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy, the bits about the judges and the kings and prophets… most of it, the New Testament included though to a lesser degree– there is probably more real history in the NT than in the old. The point is that I think most people are willing to accept that bits and pieces are mythology, but as the percentage of myth rises people start to get defensive and start to make excuses for this or that favored bit of mythology. It makes a certain amount of sense. A holy book with a few mythological tales is one thing, but a holy book as chock full of myth as the Iliad makes you start to wonder why you take the one book seriously and not the other.

    Now, as for “why taking Genesis 1 at face value suddenly means reading it as a history book”, I don’t think it does mean reading it as history, per se, but you still have to read ’six day creation’ as ’six day creation’. You then have a choice. You can decide that the passage is myth, end up with the question at the end of the preceding paragraph. “Why take this myth seriously and not that myth?” Frankly, reading the Bible as myth is a position I defend. It is myth, read it that way, but that approach does tend to put it on par with mountains of other mythology. This isn’t a problem for me. It does seem to be a problem for the bulk of the faithful and so most people seem to go with the option of making excuses for the mythology. Now for something tricky.

    A particularly subtle way of making excuses for the myth is accomplished by chopping up the Bible, our test case, into genres as you suggest. This makes a lot of sense on the surface, and certainly it is something that scholars attempt to do across the board. Scholars ask, for example, “Which part of the story is real history? Which part is political theatre? Which part is theology? Which part is poetry?” So in that sense, it makes a lot of sense. The catch comes when you realize that myth is not myth for those people who believe it. Greek myth wasn’t myth for the Greeks who believed it. It was truth. It was fact. The Egyptians didn’t think that Egyptian mythology was mythology. What this means then is that by reading the myth in the Bible as myth, you aren’t really reading it at face value. You’ve inserted a layer of interpretation. You’ve given yourself a way to dismiss the nonsense but still pretend that the Bible is in some special way ‘true’.

  17. 17 On September 25th, 2007, BruceA said:

    Sure, myth is true for the people who believe it. A mythology is comprised of the stories that define our lives. So if it’s not true, it’s not myth. But I don’t think it’s accurate to say that ancient people necessarily understood “true” to mean “factual,” in the modern scientific sense. In fact, Christians have always read the Jewish Scriptures in a non-literal sense. The New Testament writers themselves read Old Testament passages as veiled references to Jesus.

    The Apostle Paul took the story of Abraham’s two sons Ishmael and Isaac, and allegorized them in Galatians to represent Israel and Christianity, respectively. The writer of Hebrews said the Jewish temple rituals were a foreshadowing of Christ’s sacrifice. Matthew took OT statements like “The young woman shall be with child,” (referring to a sign given to King Ahaz) and “Out of Egypt I called my son,” (referring to the Exodus) to refer to Christ. Paul, in Romans, wrote that Christians are descended “by faith” from Abraham.

    So I’m not introducing a new layer of interpretation; I’m following the tradition of my faith. I’m not reading the Bible as myth merely to “dismiss the nonsense,” but to understand how it might apply to my life.

    Why do I choose this myth rather than another? Because I’m a Christian. If I belonged to a different religion, I’d have a different mythology.

  18. 18 On September 27th, 2007, themaiden said:

    BruceA,

    No one understood ‘factual’ in the modern scientific sense until a few hundred years ago, but I don’t think that is relevant. People did, arguably, understand ‘factual’ in a very common sense way. “That witch killed my cattle” wasn’t some kind of metaphorical, non-literal statement, nor was “I saw a burning bush” or “God covered the whole world with water because humans were bad.” People believed this stuff in a very no-nonsense way. That, I think, is a very defensible position.

    Christians have always read much of the Bible metaphorically. They had to, right from the beginning, in order to connect their faith to a mother religion that was really rather different in almost all respects. Granted, the precursors to rabbinical Judaism– the Pharisees– had already started the process. This is exactly the sort of thing I’m talking about. That the Christians did it 2000 years ago doesn’t really matter that much. They did to the older Jewish scripture just what I complain about.

    As for your last paragraph, how then can you take yourself or your religion seriously? That is an honest question. You believe your religion because you belong to your religion? That is no reason at all. Your faith is a crap shoot.

    The question is “Why choose this myth?” not “what myth have you chosen or what is the faith of the womb you happen to have fallen out of?” You’ve got to have reasons deeper than “I believe it because I believe it” or honestly your belief is trivial and meaningless. Think about this. The early Christians– the disciples– set out to convert people to Christianity. Do you think they preached “Well, I’m a Christian because I’m a Christian?” What do you think the answer would be? How about, “Ummm… yeah… and? Why should I care?” So, Bruce, why should they care? Why chose this one myth over any other?

  19. 19 On November 1st, 2007, Loren Petrich said:

    Deep Thought proof-texts history and his(her?) favorite theologians to support his positions.

    Science really got started in ancient Greece something like 2600 years ago with the work of Thales of Miletus. The idea that the Universe is a comprehensible place governed by principles discoverable with reason was taken for granted by many of his Greek and Roman successors — the Atomists, the Pythagoreans, the Platonists, the Aristotelians, the Stoics, you name it.

    And the theologians that Deep Thought so celebrated had rediscovered a lot of this pagan-philosophical thought; St. Thomas Aquinas had put together a grand synthesis of Aristotelian metaphysics and Xian theology. It is not for nothing that so many of our technical words have Latin and Greek origins — why do hardly any of them have Hebrew origins?

    Deep Thought is unable to explain why the New Testament or the Byzantine Empire had not had great scientific advances; the Byzantine Empire was certainly rich enough and stable enough to permit that.

    And with Deep Thought’s sort of proof-texting, one can make similar claims for many other religions and philosophies.

  20. 20 On November 2nd, 2007, themaiden said:

    Loren,

    I rather like Deep Thought, actually, but yes, he seems to be somewhat over-selecting for Christian thinkers and somewhat under-appreciating non-Christian ones when he meanders along certain trails of thought. There is a popular apologetic that asserts something like “Christianity is the conceptual underpinning necessary for science” and I think he’s fallen victim to it.

    Unfortunately, Deep never returned to continue the conversation. While I’m thinking of it though, his first comment provided even more fuel for my fire than I’d realized.

    The three main Christian theologies, Catholic, Lutheran, and Calvinist, do not consider the bible to be word-for-word directly literal. Same with Judaism (thus, the Talmud, mishnah, etc.). Thus, the ‘huge waste of brainpower’ you describe has been engaged in something rather different than you imagine.

    The Talmud and the Mishnah are exactly the kinds of wasted brainpower that I imagine.

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